Propylene Oxide Combustion

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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nitro2
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Propylene Oxide Combustion

Post by nitro2 »

Propylene oxide is banned from use by most sanctioning bodies and is a substantial health hazard. However, people do use it and there is a lot of interest in it despite the obvious (above).

We are looking at possibly doing some combustion pressure tests with it. Basic information is widely available. However, prior to doing anything with it, it would be interesting to hear from people that have used it firsthand ( or have a "friend" that used it, don't want to blow anyone's cover), mainly from a performance viewpoint, but perhaps some info from a handling perspective as well.

Radical applications are most welcome, for instance running propylene oxide at high concentrations or straight or mixing it with unusual fuels etc. etc.


Clint Gray
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(Combustion/Intake/Exhaust Pressure Analysis Equipment)
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bigjoe1
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race fuel

Post by bigjoe1 »

Years ago, some guy came to run on my dyno, and he had some to test. In real small percentages it did almost NOTHING. BUT, when we got up to about 10 %, it started to make some real power. This was like a street racer who wanted a edge. On a 615 HP 355 Chevy, it went up 642 with the 10 % . I was afraid to try more. It was very expensive at the time ( 1993 )we were adding it ti VP C-12 fuel at the time.

JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES
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Post by stealth »

http://www.pro-system.com/pjames021300.html

some good info on this site...

mike
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Post by David Redszus »

Propylene oxide contains 27.5% oxygen,
has a stoich value of 9.51/1,
a heating value of 1413 BTU/lb of air,
a boiling point of 93F,
is a class A3 carcinogen (nasal cancer)
with a TLV of 2 ppm.

When added to a typical race gas (isooctane) 10% by volume will increase fuel BTU by 1%. But observed power could increase by much more due to its ease of evaporation and ignitability.

It is on the HAZMAT list for most race sanctioning bodies and should be avoided.
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Post by nhrastocker »

Klotz Lube has some great fuel additives that also work great; they contain Nitropropane.

http://www.klotzlube.com/storeCats.asp?ci=3
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Post by David Redszus »

Of all the performance enhancing additives available, nitropropane is not one of them. You would be much better off using MTBE.
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Post by quickd100 »

I tryed it years ago in my old slow truck. I ran a mix of 90% 100LL avgas and 10% propylene. I increased the carb jetting by 10% also. The truck picked up .15 in the 1/4 verse straight 91 pump gas on back to back passes with no other changes. Dave
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Re: race fuel

Post by Gary Blair »

bigjoe1 wrote:Years ago, some guy came to run on my dyno, and he had some to test. In real small percentages it did almost NOTHING. BUT, when we got up to about 10 %, it started to make some real power. This was like a street racer who wanted a edge. On a 615 HP 355 Chevy, it went up 642 with the 10 % . I was afraid to try more. It was very expensive at the time ( 1993 )we were adding it ti VP C-12 fuel at the time.

JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES
Joe,
Have you heard any numbers on Propylene Oxide use in the engine oil?

Dinitrotouloulene is another chemical that I have heard of to use in the oil. I believe it is an oxidizer as well.

Gary,
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Post by MadBill »

Trinitrotoluene gives an even bigger 'bang' for the buck... :lol: :lol:

Presumably it would be added to the oil to escape detection and would be expected to enter the cylinders through a PCV-like system?
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Post by nitro2 »

No one has run propylene oxide straight, or at least as the main component of a blend ?
nissan-lover

Post by nissan-lover »

I thought it was an explosion hazard at high levels, it becomes unstable on storage, apart from the cancer issue, that was another reason to ban it.

Mike
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Post by David Redszus »

nissan-lover wrote:I thought it was an explosion hazard at high levels, it becomes unstable on storage, apart from the cancer issue, that was another reason to ban it.

Mike
While I can't confirm the explosive characteristics of PO, it has a very low boiling point which makes it difficult to keep around without evaporating away. It is even difficult to keep in a fuel; the proportions will change due to evaporation.
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Post by nitro2 »

The MSDS sheets indicate that it is stable (100% concentration), except when it is in contact with incompatibles. Apparently in the presence of water it turns into propylene glycol.

I should point out that our interest is not in promoting the use of propylene oxide, but more in the study of how and why it affects combustion to the extent that it does - using measured combustion values, not theorized. What is learned, may be useful, even if the fuel itself is not. Info based on firsthand experiences would also factor in i.e. we should expect similar performance results and would like to know what to expect in terms of behavior in general.

Clint Gray
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www.tfxengine.com
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Post by John Haskell »

In the late 60's, Allen Green Chevrolet raced a Chevy ll Fastback Big Block. Those boys were allways drunk. That car tried to run fast but it was allways out of control.

One week-end while in the pits, there was a huge explosion & no one knew for a few seconds what happened. -------- We saw parts flying in the air along with plenty of smoke & dust. Parts were falling on cars in the pits & we all wondered 'what the'......

Seems those boys were using P/O & had crossed a plug wire, while attempting to start in the lanes. ------- The right bank split a head in half, blew off part of one fender & hood showering the shrapnel through out the imidiate area, & into the pits.

Only when I saw the front half of the cylinder head missing, did I realise what was flying around the pits. ---------- A few spectators were hit with pieces but no serious wounds.

One of those things you never forget when your a kid.

No one knew they were using P/O. This was during the early days of experimenting with power adders.
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Post by gasman5.0 »

We make Propylene Oxide where I work. I can tell you frist hand... handle and store with extreem care! We had a small strainer get blocked in with about 3 gallons of Propylene Oxide. When it got hot enough sitting in the sun it finally exploded. That 3 gallons blew two railway tanker cars off the tracks and twisted up 8" steel I beams . We had another accident when operations was safeing the unit for T&I work when they were clearing a line off the reactors with steam. A small loop in the line was holding 50 gallons. It caused 3 million dollars in damage and burned 3 men. not trying to scare anyone. Just think and keep in mind the dangers of playing around with this stuff.
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