CnC head software ?

[cboggs]

Question about CnC software for head porting, ...

is anyone using Solidworks or Pro E ?????

for scanning, .. what are people using for the software to handle
the point clouds?, .. Geo-Magic, .. ???

How about the controller? and one controller seem to be better then the
other????

Thanks,

Curtis

[learner]

I have been learning to use Solid Works, not for porting though. It's amazing what can be done. I have a drawing of a port mold i made. It's not exactly accurate because i'm not currently able to get the program to do everything i want it to but you can tell what it is.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

To model ports in CAD the absolute must have features of the CAD system are:

1. Parametric datum planes or better yet datum CSYS.
2. The abilty to parametrically define a spline that is constrained by poles.
3. Section fillet surfaces that have the surface parameterization controlled by a spine.
4. Capable blending by edge and by face.
5. Conics with variable rho in the sketcher
6. The abilty to model each part of a head in different but associated files, ie the intake and exhaust ports in different files of the assemblies.
7. Bridge surfaces with drag control
8. Swept surfaces with spine, scale (by law), blending, orientation control.
9. Mesh surfaces with editable boundary constraints.
10. Spreadsheet control of parameters

Even with all these capabilties modeling ports is still very difficult and every port style requires a different modeling stratagy, and you will try 10 or 20 before you find one that works completly.

I would never consider modeling ports with a CAM software or any non parametric system that isn't widely used to design auto bodies. The same functionality is used for ports as auto bodies, both have similar difficulty.


If you just want to scan existing ports for duplication, that is much easier but much more limited for design and analysis. There was/is a place in Florida (CNC Heads?) that sold a digitizing software for ports that sounded like it might be usable. I think it worked with SurfCAM.


As for CAM, associtivity from parametric CAD to integrated CAM is a must if you want to make and test multiple variations of a design efficiently.

[cboggs]

Jon,

Yes all I really want to do is scan an existing port and duplicate it
on CnC. But the ability to edit the ports is important. I need to be able to
make updates to the port designs.

I think most people I have spoken to are using Surf-cam, .. quite
"clunky" for software that expensive.
I know RCR is using Geo Magic into Pro-e then cutting with Pro-nc.
I don't know if that's a better solution or what, ..

I know the people in Florida, .. nice software but I got the feeling they
didn't want the business if I wasn't buying a turn key system, .. I'd like
to try the software but there's no demo, .. and I'm not buying a $320K system.

We are looking into a few ways to do this, ..

scan to Surfcam, ..
scan to Geo-Magic, go into Pro-e, .. cut with Pro-nc, ..
Scan to Mastercam, ..
Scan to Solidworks, .. cut with FeatureCam.

link for Geomagic, http://www.geomagic.com/products/studio/

Curtis

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I reverse engineered a nitro head a few years ago. Here is the process I used:

Foam mold of the ports and chambers (one piece) mounted on an accurate fixture with datum measuring points on the fixture.

Sent it to a digital scanning guy in Hollywood.
He scanned it within about 0.020 inches. The file was huge about 30mg.

I created an assembly in Unigraphics NX with one component that was the scaned stl model and another five components for the intake port, ex port, chamber and spark plugs.

I then modeled the ports interactivly to match the scanned model as close as possible. You would be suprised to see how lumpy the ports were compared to CAD when they looked very smooth looking down the port in the head.

When I get home today, I will post some images of modeling ports on Hemi heads. Of course those are easy compared to a wedge or canted valve head.

Avoid jumping from one CAD app to another. The big three are the only way to do this type of work and the cost is about the same as the combined individual software.

I have used Geomagic and a few other RE softwares and I think you would be dossapointed with the compromises the make.

What ports are you most interested in doing? If you can get scanned data, points are good enough, I can work out a proccess in NX and you can see if it works for you,

[cboggs]

Jon,

I need to scan in house as I'll be doing several types of heads, ..
BB & SB Chevy, .. SB2.2, .. Mopar W9 rp, .. etc.

Most guys are probe scanning with a Renishaw or some other
touch probe, .. It's likely I'll scan in the spindle since I'm
more concerned with costs then machine time.

Darin has helped me some with discussions, .. and Dave at
Sonny's is helping too. Dave is using Surfcam and is supposed to
e-mail a point cloud so I can learn to import and layout in Surfcam.

By the "big three" I assume you mean Surfcam, Mastercam and ?

With Geomagic, .. what are the problems with that process?
It looks like it would work well based on the software information
and a few things I've heard from RCR using it.

Thanks for the help, ..

Curtis

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

The Big Three are UGS Unigraphics NX (I work there in development), the others are CATIA and Pro E. Anything else is too frustrating in my experience. I know this software is rather expensive for a new project, that's one reason I like my job, I have access to about any software you can think of.

If you will send me a point scan, I can figure out a way to model it. Ussually I can make a parametric model that can be adjusted in most ways. Also If a CNC program is made and you change the design it is no big deal to regen new programs and be cutting again in minutes (no reselecting anything).

Here is a link to some images from the fuel head project I did. The ports are just cleaned-up versions of what was scanned, I didn't have any intention of redsigning it except cleaning up the valvecover gasket rail and some dimensions that conflicted across the five or so heads I measured from different makers.

http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com/billet ... heads.html

Keep in mind, a BBC or SBC port is multiples more difficult to model.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

With Geomagic, .. what are the problems with that process?

With Geo and most other RE softare the ideas is to fit degree three surface patches to fit a point cloud. The problem is that point clouds always have some bad data in them. The software has ways to try to remove the bad points but it is also removing good points in areas with tight radii that you dont want removed.

Then after the surfaces are fit to the points they will not have good surface to surface continuity, so the software has tools to improve the continuity but that again takes it further away from the scanned shape.

Basicly the key to good surface modeling is using the largest surfaces posible with the fewest control verticies possible. Only trim surfaces when there is absolutly no other way to get the shape and if no other surfaces will be constrained to the trimmed surface. The reason for this is the parameterization of a trimmed surface has to be approximated on the trimmed edges and this provides a poor foundation for the surfaces that are constrained to those trimmed edges.

[ClassKing]

Which software can (if any) easily move one entire wall. Say you want to raise the entire roof .050. Is one better than another?

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Which software can (if any) easily move one entire wall. Say you want to raise the entire roof .050. Is one better than another?

If it were modeled parametrically in one of the big 3 by someone that knw what they were doing when they modeled it, it would be a trivial adjustment that should take no more that 1 minute including opening the file, changing the parameter waiting for the update and looking it over for any problems.

If it is a non parametric model it would be a 75% do over which could mean hours at least, maybe days.

I have spent more than 100 hours to model some ports but when they are done, I can adjust them in many ways in seconds.

[Donovan]

Curtis,
You might want to check this company out. They have a machine for what you want to do. http://www.fryermachine.com/sxseries.htm
Talk to Larry, he seems pretty smart on cylinder head porting and which software to use.

[Donovan]

Take a look at these two software systems. http://www.vx.com/
and www.onecnc.com

[ClassKing]

Thanks. If I'm fortunate enough to make it happen ($) I'd like to get a 5 axis machine, then get the best software that comes with a good teacher. I'd also be wanting to probe existing ports for duplication.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Take a look at these two software systems. http://www.vx.com/
and www.onecnc.com

Donovan, why would you use two non integrated (CAD to CAM) software when there are 3 integrated systems to choose from each with 100 times the development resourses of the software companies mentioned?

[Ape]

Hope i got the thread right,
You want a virtual model of a allready built port.
I was goin through that too, and than decided to get it done, since it´s not that expensive.

Most good places for rapid protoyping have 3d-scanners, and will suplly you with an editable, 3D-CAD file in either proeng. or catia format.
At least over here its not that expensive since the scanning process wont take that long, neither the conversion of the point cloud(depending on the algorythm). ask one of the better and bigger die and toolmakeries in your local area. Preferable one that does things with plastic molds, like car rear view mirrors. thats how i did it.
Otherwise get in touch with ibm about catia, they might have student versions, and there is excellent castingsoftware, by i think ansys. The cadcam translation shouldnt be too big of a deal since most good die and tollmakers use catia or proeng anyways, and they need the conversions in order to feed the machines. so if you´re not planning on making big production runs i would think this is a walkable way.

regards
christian

PS: I´ll ask a friend how they do it, (making carparts molds), gimme a couple days