Crazy No Valve Question

[user-9274568]

Is it possible to have less flow with no valve than with the valve at lift? Example, At .900 lift 411 cfm. At .900 lift, no valve 400 cfm.. Am I crazy??

Chad

[SWB]

A small valve 4-cylinder head I did recently flowed 163 without the valve and 160 with it. I have no trouble believing that a combination developed to a very high level to flow max air with the valve installed would flow worse with it removed.

SWB

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

One time made a bet where a guy took an Intake valve about 2.2" and stuck the stem in the end of a pipe about 1-1/2 ID with a flange on it. The bet was that I could set up as much air pressure/flow to the pipe as possible that I couldn't blow the valve out of the pipe. Well we had some serious air pressure at that shop and big pipes so I connected it directly 160 psi and no restriction smaller that 1.25".

I lost the bet, valve lifted to about .4" lift and fluttered about .05". The more remarkable thing is that it seemed more difficult to pull it out than if there was no air flowing out of the pipe.

[Adger Smith]

Yes it is possible, do it quite often with limited lift rule heads..

[ClassKing]

Adger, did this question put a smile on your face? I was only lucky to have learned this in Kent Fisks class at Chaffey in '91. Or I'd be losing bets left and right. At least to the point that there's no gains in almost all heads w/o an intake valve.

SWB. Seeing too much atmosphere too quickly.

[Adger Smith]

Fluid Dynamics 1971 U of H :~)

Bruce, That answer sure makes me feel OLD!

[ClassKing]

That's why we have race cars eh? For a few seconds we're smarter 21 yr olds....!!

Maybe I'll reuse that old Coke phrase on the new car. "For those that think Young"

Email me and I'll tell you what I AM putting on the new car. Don't want to spoil the surprise for everyone.

Indywinner@dslextreme.com

[BillyShope]

One time made a bet where a guy took an Intake valve about 2.2" and stuck the stem in the end of a pipe about 1-1/2 ID with a flange on it. The bet was that I could set up as much air pressure/flow to the pipe as possible that I couldn't blow the valve out of the pipe. Well we had some serious air pressure at that shop and big pipes so I connected it directly 160 psi and no restriction smaller that 1.25".

I lost the bet, valve lifted to about .4" lift and fluttered about .05". The more remarkable thing is that it seemed more difficult to pull it out than if there was no air flowing out of the pipe.

Don't see where this has an application to the original question. About 25 years ago, Lyntone Engineering (Rainbird sprinklers) considered a "sprinkler" which was simply a vertical pipe and flange with a free round steel disk sitting on top of it. When you turned the water on, the disk rose a few thousandths and a fine spray was discharged evenly around the pipe.

As the fluid...water, air, or whatever...flows over the flange, the conversion of a portion of the total energy to dynamic pressure results in a localized reduction of static pressure. This lower pressure, acting over the area of the flange, acts to retain the disk over the sprinkler pipe, or, in your case, the valve at the end of the air line.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Don't see where this has an application to the original question.

The flange has the same effect as the combustion chamber.

[BillyShope]

Don't see where this has an application to the original question.

The flange has the same effect as the combustion chamber.

Okay, I see that, but what I'm getting at is that we could have put a lot more water through that pipe if we'd simply removed the disk before turning the water on.