has anyone seen a finished product from one of these machines?
http://www.millportmachines.com/rhino5.htm
I see them advertised in the PRI, but haven't seen anyone that has used them. Looks like they have a spindle digitizer that you can get with it too.
thanks,
shawn
millport cnc
Moderator: Team
-
Joe Mendelis
Is that Dave Jack cylinder heads? I see in an article that he uses one. I would call and ask him about it, but i don't know him. Here's a the link to the article about him porting the heads. There's a few good pics of his machine and setup.
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/p ... mm_xrated/
thanks for the input Joe.
shawn
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/p ... mm_xrated/
thanks for the input Joe.
shawn
I've been talking to these people, .. seem to have a grip on it
but understand that this is a "low end" 5 axis machine.
Not that there's anything wrong with it, .. it's just a little slower
and has some quirks.
I got a quote of around $85K for the machine, .. spindle digitizer
is another $6K I think, .. for around $100K you could be running
with tooling and all.
Now I've also spoken to some one about a 3 axis machine
with the same Centroid controller and a manual roll fixture on the table.
You have to position cut, .. or cut each "patch", .. then roll the head or
tilt the machine head for the next cut, .. this can be done for around $35K
Not much different then the 5 axis machine as I think it position cuts
and doesn't really do simultaneous 5 axis, .. or maybe it needs Surfcam
( another $15K ) to do simultaneous ??
Both will cut heads as good as any 5 axis CnC machine, .. depending
on the operator.
Time is the big issue here, .. both these machines have a slow spindle speed,
6,000 rpm for the Millport Rhino, .. 5,000 rpm for the 3 axis.
These are very slow spindle speeds by today's standards and will make
cutting heads take longer then the high dollar 5 axis systems using a
Haas or Fadel machine.
These machines, .. even a 3 axis "Bridgeport" knee mill can CnC a head
and get as good results as any high dollar machine. First it's the operator,
how well the head is digitized, .. and time.
The other thing I've found, and the most time consuming is the digitizing.
If you digitize in the spindle you could tie the machine up for two
or three days, .. days it's not cutting and making money.
The Renishaw Cyclone digitizing system is around $45K.
Millport site - http://www.millportmachines.com/rhino5.htm
Centroid 5 axis cylinder head table, http://www.centroidcnc.com/cylinder_head_cnc.htm
Curtis
but understand that this is a "low end" 5 axis machine.
Not that there's anything wrong with it, .. it's just a little slower
and has some quirks.
I got a quote of around $85K for the machine, .. spindle digitizer
is another $6K I think, .. for around $100K you could be running
with tooling and all.
Now I've also spoken to some one about a 3 axis machine
with the same Centroid controller and a manual roll fixture on the table.
You have to position cut, .. or cut each "patch", .. then roll the head or
tilt the machine head for the next cut, .. this can be done for around $35K
Not much different then the 5 axis machine as I think it position cuts
and doesn't really do simultaneous 5 axis, .. or maybe it needs Surfcam
( another $15K ) to do simultaneous ??
Both will cut heads as good as any 5 axis CnC machine, .. depending
on the operator.
Time is the big issue here, .. both these machines have a slow spindle speed,
6,000 rpm for the Millport Rhino, .. 5,000 rpm for the 3 axis.
These are very slow spindle speeds by today's standards and will make
cutting heads take longer then the high dollar 5 axis systems using a
Haas or Fadel machine.
These machines, .. even a 3 axis "Bridgeport" knee mill can CnC a head
and get as good results as any high dollar machine. First it's the operator,
how well the head is digitized, .. and time.
The other thing I've found, and the most time consuming is the digitizing.
If you digitize in the spindle you could tie the machine up for two
or three days, .. days it's not cutting and making money.
The Renishaw Cyclone digitizing system is around $45K.
Millport site - http://www.millportmachines.com/rhino5.htm
Centroid 5 axis cylinder head table, http://www.centroidcnc.com/cylinder_head_cnc.htm
Curtis
Race Flow Development
Simultaneous 5-axis CNC Porting
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com
Simultaneous 5-axis CNC Porting
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com
-
Joe Mendelis
Tom Hemphill Racing Engines in Clarksburg PA.shawn wrote:Is that Dave Jack cylinder heads? I see in an article that he uses one. I would call and ask him about it, but i don't know him. Here's a the link to the article about him porting the heads. There's a few good pics of his machine and setup.
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/p ... mm_xrated/
thanks for the input Joe.
shawn
Like these other guys are saying, it's probably a lot slower than a Haas or Mazak, but it is inexpensive. If I was going to start my own Porting business I would find it almost necessary to buy one.
I spoke to Tom at the PRI show, very nice guy and very willing
to help with the machine, .. I think he's been behind most of the
"kink removal" process.
Also Coy Miller race engines uses two of them, .. and seems to like them.
Ed, .. long time no speak, .. hope all is well.
Curtis
to help with the machine, .. I think he's been behind most of the
"kink removal" process.
Also Coy Miller race engines uses two of them, .. and seems to like them.
Ed, .. long time no speak, .. hope all is well.
Curtis
Race Flow Development
Simultaneous 5-axis CNC Porting
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com
Simultaneous 5-axis CNC Porting
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com
I personally haven't seen a machine like what you've mentioned, it is obviously targetted towards the smaller volume CNC porting shop. if you can get some other work in on the machine inbetween doing heads, eg - Piston domes, Brackets etc, that should help pay the bills some. A machine like this won'e be as fast as some of the more rigid machines with higher spindle speeds, but it will be quicker than hand porting.
Something like this would be ideal to start out with, and has the workload and $$$ becomes more plentiful, a machine solely for digitising port could be purchased, or a larger machine or whatever.
If you were going to be looking at doing other styles of work, I would look into some of the functions of the controller, and how easy they are to use. It states the controller is a conversational unit, which will generally mean it should be quick, and relatively simple to program. It also features canned cylcles for doing pocketing etc, which is a very handy feature, the only possible downside that these canned cycles maybe a little confusing to use and understand at first. Also, I noticed it stated that the MPG handwheel is an option. Find out how much extra it is, and whether it is incorperated into the control panel, or if it is a separate unit on a flexy cord. Either way, it will make your life alot easier when setting up.
Lastly, I am not sure if they are still manufacted or not, or whether there would be enough room, but one way around the spindle speed,would be to purchase a High Speed Spindle head attachment. I have worked in a few places that had them, the spindle speed can be stepped up to around 30000 rpm depending on the model and the machine spindle speed. If this does prove to be a viable option, you will need to speed to the machine manufacturer about how far ahead the controller's software reads forward in the program. If the controller can't keep up with the tables traverse(feed) , it's going to make a mess.
If I can help you out at all from down here Shawn, let me know. I can be emailed on jonesalan1@optusnet.com.au
IHTH's
AL...
Something like this would be ideal to start out with, and has the workload and $$$ becomes more plentiful, a machine solely for digitising port could be purchased, or a larger machine or whatever.
If you were going to be looking at doing other styles of work, I would look into some of the functions of the controller, and how easy they are to use. It states the controller is a conversational unit, which will generally mean it should be quick, and relatively simple to program. It also features canned cylcles for doing pocketing etc, which is a very handy feature, the only possible downside that these canned cycles maybe a little confusing to use and understand at first. Also, I noticed it stated that the MPG handwheel is an option. Find out how much extra it is, and whether it is incorperated into the control panel, or if it is a separate unit on a flexy cord. Either way, it will make your life alot easier when setting up.
Lastly, I am not sure if they are still manufacted or not, or whether there would be enough room, but one way around the spindle speed,would be to purchase a High Speed Spindle head attachment. I have worked in a few places that had them, the spindle speed can be stepped up to around 30000 rpm depending on the model and the machine spindle speed. If this does prove to be a viable option, you will need to speed to the machine manufacturer about how far ahead the controller's software reads forward in the program. If the controller can't keep up with the tables traverse(feed) , it's going to make a mess.
If I can help you out at all from down here Shawn, let me know. I can be emailed on jonesalan1@optusnet.com.au
IHTH's
AL...
-
SchmidtMotorWorks
- Vendor
- Posts: 11003
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:30 am
- Location: CA
Keep an eye out for any used Bostomatic 5 axis machines.
They do 5 axis by tipping the head on a Y parallel axis and rotating the part on an X parallel axis. This style requires much less motion to do the same work and can cut much faster and more accuratly when doing multi axis moves. Also requires less computation for the software in some situations that reduces rounding errors which really do become significant.
I would try to avoid 5 axis fixtures where the point of rotation is a long distance from the point of cut. This is the problem with most 5 axis head milling fixtures. Very small errors in machine rotary table accuracy become large errors the farther the cut is from the point of rotation.
They do 5 axis by tipping the head on a Y parallel axis and rotating the part on an X parallel axis. This style requires much less motion to do the same work and can cut much faster and more accuratly when doing multi axis moves. Also requires less computation for the software in some situations that reduces rounding errors which really do become significant.
I would try to avoid 5 axis fixtures where the point of rotation is a long distance from the point of cut. This is the problem with most 5 axis head milling fixtures. Very small errors in machine rotary table accuracy become large errors the farther the cut is from the point of rotation.
There are a number of options for 5-axis simultaneous. Bostomatic/Mikron, Fidia, Hermle, DMG & Mazak just to name a few. All offer machines that are either spindle-rotated (A & B axis rotation) or are fixed spindle types. If you want a high end fixed spindle type with manual rotary built in, then you might look at DMG America.
I know absolutely nothing about the machine you gentlemen have mentioned. I do however understand that one biggie here is going to be access to a lending hand and it sounds like you have a good support team already. That's a big plus.
Curtis,
You will need a CAM system to drive the toolpath no matter which way you go. Surfcam and many of the others do 3 axis surfaces pretty well but when you get into 5-axis simultaneous, well some are just plain bad at it. Either way, 5-axis is an add-on capability for most of your CAM software packages. If you are serious about going this route then I'd take a long hard look at not only Surfcam, but Delcam's PowerMill, Mastercam and Esprit.
This:
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/030003.html
May be another low cost option.
Good luck.
Chuck
I know absolutely nothing about the machine you gentlemen have mentioned. I do however understand that one biggie here is going to be access to a lending hand and it sounds like you have a good support team already. That's a big plus.
Curtis,
You will need a CAM system to drive the toolpath no matter which way you go. Surfcam and many of the others do 3 axis surfaces pretty well but when you get into 5-axis simultaneous, well some are just plain bad at it. Either way, 5-axis is an add-on capability for most of your CAM software packages. If you are serious about going this route then I'd take a long hard look at not only Surfcam, but Delcam's PowerMill, Mastercam and Esprit.
This:
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/030003.html
May be another low cost option.
Good luck.
Chuck