Water/meth injection on a high compression engine

[Torquemonster]

I used to run the SNOW performance kit on my SOHC 98 Mustang and I thought it was the greatest thing next to the Novi 2K. My car was street driven race car with 9.3:1 compression, 26PSI boost, no intercooler, Novi 2K on cog. I never had any detonation running full 36* timing with 93 octane pump gas. First time out I opened the hood after running and put my hand on the Novi. Blazing hot! The put my hand on the discharge pipe where the 2 nozzles are located. Luke warm! Then put my hand on the aluminum intake manifold plenum entry. Cold to the touch! Aint no intercooler pulling that off no matter how much ice you stuff into the reservoir. Since then Ive sold the stang but was so impressed I kept the SNOW kit for myself. If my current 11.6:1 SBC doesnt like full timing with pump gas I may go back to the kit.

I know my example isnt a 14:1 NA deal but 9.3:1 with 25+ psi is workin it pretty f'in hard. Water/meth kit is awesome. Only drawback is filling the tank.

Sensational results!

[BrazilianZ28Camaro]

Excuses for the dumb question , but why he can't use meth/ water percentages in the gas tank mixed with gasoline?

maybe that "mixture" can't be homogeneous?

actually it's not as stupid a question as you think. Adding a tiny amount of detergent into the fuel will enable gasoline and water to mix and consequently burn. Try it in a container, it will burn right down to a mix of 70% water and 30% gas - but it has not real fire power left by then.

As for getting methanol to mix with the gasoline as well as the water - that I have not done

But as for trying it in your car - I'd be more careful. Around 10% by volume would unlikely cause any issues provided you can tune to suit. Higher volumes of water in the fuel could create serious problems.

Very interesting info, Torquemonster, I'm just wondering what kind of detergent woul'd be used to do this

That mixture could supress the detonation at some point?

Here in Brazil our 110 octane pump ethil-alcohol is "hidrated" with 5% water and our pump 87,91 and 95 octane gasoline have 25% methil-alcohol (without water) mixed, determined by law.

[Torquemonster]

Excuses for the dumb question , but why he can't use meth/ water percentages in the gas tank mixed with gasoline?

maybe that "mixture" can't be homogeneous?

actually it's not as stupid a question as you think. Adding a tiny amount of detergent into the fuel will enable gasoline and water to mix and consequently burn. Try it in a container, it will burn right down to a mix of 70% water and 30% gas - but it has not real fire power left by then.

As for getting methanol to mix with the gasoline as well as the water - that I have not done

But as for trying it in your car - I'd be more careful. Around 10% by volume would unlikely cause any issues provided you can tune to suit. Higher volumes of water in the fuel could create serious problems.

Very interesting info, Torquemonster, I'm just wondering what kind of detergent woul'd be used to do this

That mixture could supress the detonation at some point?

Here in Brazil our 110 octane pump ethil-alcohol is "hidrated" with 5% water and our pump 87,91 and 95 octane gasoline have 25% methil-alcohol (without water) mixed, determined by law.

a fuel chemist may come up with something more glamorous but ordinary dish washing liquid worked for me... you do not need/want much. Try it in an open container - pour in a measured amount of gas then see how many drops of dishwashing liquid you need to get it to mix with water. Start with 1 drop per liter/quart and work up from there until you can get a nice mix. The gasoline will change color.

We never tried this mix in a vehicle - we just did it for shits and giggles to prove it could be done and never went back to it to experiment further.

So try this in a car at your own risk. Just because water injection can go to high volumes does not mean water in fuel (mixed via catalyst) will provide just as happy results. But by all means let us know how you get on, it would be very interesting to see what happened.

I suspect you'll lose a lot of power if you add too much water unless the engine ran direct in-cylinder injection

[Gunner]

I have been running water/alky injection on my supercharged and nitrous injected 406 for 8 years.

This is a street car with 9-1 CR and D1-R Procharged @ 20 psi
Last summer race gas was $ 13.25 a gal. those who suggest using that have a better income than I do.

I save the water from my dehumidifier and add medical grade alcohol.
I monitor for detonation but don't have any.

[Torquemonster]

I have been running water/alky injection on my supercharged and nitrous injected 406 for 8 years.

This is a street car with 9-1 CR and D1-R Procharged @ 20 psi
Last summer race gas was $ 13.25 a gal. those who suggest using that have a better income than I do.

I save the water from my dehumidifier and add medical grade alcohol.
I monitor for detonation but don't have any.

great results. I too ran water in a daily driver. In all the 1000's of miles I did the red light only came on once to tell me the tank was low... filling the tank was no more problem that adding gas. Adding methanol would have been more of an issue but simply required buying a tank and a measuring can to meter it out at each refill.

Gotta love the timing that you blower boys can get. You cannot do that with turbos because they boost too fast and too soon in most street applications, and so they take far less advance on a given octane/boost

[407SBC]

Im completely sold on the benefits. Before I had my Mustang running the water/meth I figured intercooler was the way to go. I had purchased a largeXhuge HKS front mount for Supra but ended up selling it after that first ride with the SNOW kit. I always mixed my own, D2O with pure methanol, available everywhere as a product called HEET in a yellow bottle. Fuel line de-icer that they sell in Miami, FL.

[Omega]

Air there any benefits power wise on a pure meth injected setup on NA engine that currently runs on race fuel, lower intake air temps more power?

Any one tried this?

[coolchevy]

pure Methanol for injection is a double sided sword if the nozzles are too big. If below a certain threshold you will cool intake charge and increase octane rating a lot, if you add too much you will cool but instantly go lean.

I have tried this on the dyno a gazillion time on blown customer cars

if you use a mix you are better off as you can still go crazy on ignition and boost and if you run out of meth you can run home on water alone, if dialed in for Meth only you have to stay out o boost on the way home.

[ndaglis]

>> but why he can't use meth/ water percentages in the gas tank mixed with gasoline?

> Adding a tiny amount of detergent into the fuel will enable gasoline and water to mix and consequently burn.

A surfactant with a HLB value of 7.0 will allow a reasonably stable water in gasoline emulsion.

Obtaining a surfactant with the correct HLB value is not easy in small-ish quantities. It's easier if you want it by the 55 gallon drum.

The HLB scale runs from 0 to 20.

There are many different surfactants available and it is possible to obtain a required HLB value by mixing different surfactants and averaging their contribution.

The resulting emulsion is not perfect and separates with over night standing. Not a problem if you have an in-tank fuel pump and can run it for 10 seconds prior to turning over the motor.

I never got past the problem of getting some water on the spark plugs which bleeds off energy and in turn burns out coils. Perhaps much warmer plugs are an idea to anyone considering playing in this area.

I suppose one of the benefits of separate WI systems is that they do not inject at low rpms and the problem of water coating the plugs is avoided.



PS. When dealing with surfactants, there is a critical concentration value (called 'cnc', from memory) below which the electrical conductivity is small.

I'm convinced this bit of information is very relevant in a spark ignition engine, but as mentioned, I've dropped playing with thus stuff.

PPS> Redline Water Remover is a commercial product to do just this (I think, never used it). However it isn't concentrated enough to allow economical long term use as it's intended otherwise for emergency/once off use.

[Torquemonster]

that's interesting, and I agree with you - injecting water separately makes me a lot more comfortable than trying to make it mix in with the fuel.

I can see several problems running water in the fuel regardless how well it is mixed... but hey - if someone finds a way to make it work as well as WI and without negative side effects - I'd be first to congratulate them. I just don't see me trying it based on what I know at this time.

Direct water injection would be where I was looking to go, but not with ordinary tap water.

[Gunner]

Im completely sold on the benefits. Before I had my Mustang running the water/meth I figured intercooler was the way to go. I had purchased a largeXhuge HKS front mount for Supra but ended up selling it after that first ride with the SNOW kit. I always mixed my own, D2O with pure methanol, available everywhere as a product called HEET in a yellow bottle. Fuel line de-icer that they sell in Miami, FL.

Several do like you they run one or the other but I run both .

I have a very large custom plate type intercooler and a water/alky injection that is boost referenced.

By using a large intercooler I don't need to inject as much water/alky mix
By monitoring the IAT I can see that the intercooler is lowering the temp about 80F

[maxc]

I wonder how much compression this guy is running?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/curbsi ... ury-bobcat

[mustangmike68]

I run the AIS unit on my supercharged 347. When I did a chasis dyno I made a run with/without and it gained me 40hp. I use -30 windshield fluid and heet. One thing you have to watch is the switch gumming up if you let it sit. I don't drive my car in the winter and come spring it wouldn't work. I set up a small regulator with a gauge to adjust the kick on setting. Personally, I can feel the difference. AIS website has all the info needed. Rodney over there was very helpful as well.

[gruntguru]

https://www.todaysmotorvehicles.com/art ... gy-090116/

[F-BIRD'88]

If you had 3x2 carbs instead of a single 4 bbl carb the center primary carb could run on pump gas and the 2 outer 2 bbl "secondary" carbs could run on high octane gas.
Could be race gas or E85 or Ethanol or Methanol fuel or a blend of water + either of thesThe engine would idle and run at part throttle at low speed up to hiway cruise speed
With knock detection and timing control , then for more throttle load power the high octane secondary carbs kick in progressivily up to full throttle.
The high octane fuel is only consumed at higher throttle power demands, as needed.

GM had a concept/show car that employed such a dual fuel system in the '30s. It was supercharged . Used separate pump gasoline and Methanol carbs/fuel systems.

Tri-Power 3X2 carburation suites this well on a V8 engine.