Water/meth injection on a high compression engine

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Tuner
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Post by Tuner »

As it happens, I have one also but just the controller, no box or instructions. A pal gave it to me with, “Here, you probably have something you can do with this.” If you have the instructions, could you be so kind as to post which wire does what? This one has white, red, black and yellow wires.

I installed a few of them 30 years ago on motor homes, pickup-campers, etc. The snowbirds who vacationed down into Mexico liked them because the Mexican gasoline was only about 80 octane (one guy said, “13 octane, you have bad luck when you burn that stuff”).
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Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Further reading of the research on the subject, also done a long time ago.

http://www.ricardo.com/ricardoStore/pro ... 2&P_ID=149
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Post by miniv8 »

Here's the K.I.S.S. principle taken to the extreme...

http://www.dave-cushman.net/misc/mannject.html
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Post by 73c34me »

Tuner- I can post the directions from the vari injection- I will need some time to scan & maybe assistance as to how to post, but I have all directions & diagrams & parts :D
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Post by Tuner »

You don’t have to go to that much trouble; just what color wire goes where. It bugs me that I can remember something a guy said in jest 30 years ago and I can’t remember the important stuff like his name or the wiring diagram. Wasupwitdat?
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Post by GuysMonteSS »

So,theoretically,could you build a high compression,13-14:1 cr engine,for street & occasional strip use,and use a combination of water/methanol injection,and a vaccuum pump,with the proper ring package,and see substantial hp & torque gains ?? Would this also increase fuel effenciey,and gas mileage?? Would a tight quench area also affect how this theoretic combo would perform ?? Could a timing retard system also be used ??

Guy
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Post by FastFourierTransportation »

GuysMonteSS wrote:So,theoretically,could you build a high compression,13-14:1 cr engine,for street & occasional strip use,and use a combination of water/methanol injection,and a vaccuum pump,with the proper ring package,and see substantial hp & torque gains ?? Would this also increase fuel effenciey,and gas mileage?? Would a tight quench area also affect how this theoretic combo would perform ?? Could a timing retard system also be used ??

Guy
Holy variables batman! :lol:

Running a high compression engine on water injection is somewhat more dangerous because you can't just drop the intake pressure if the W/I system fails, or is inactive, like you can with a boosted setup.

Yes, it can give better power and mileage ... but it takes a LOT of effort and experimentation on each engine to guarantee benefit. If you just throw it on there, you're more likely to see loss than gain. It must be carefully tuned ... and given a proper failsafe! :!:

-Adrian
A theory without experiment is like a painter without sight, but an experiment with no theory is just a 4 year old with paint.

Practical Engineering is finding new and better ways to copy other people's designs.
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Post by maxc »

I'm building a 12.5 to 1 351C with a "260" cam.
My water injection system works kinda like a carb.
I've had nice results with water injection and bad luck with machine shops.
It won't be done for 4 months. After that the system will be set up with no reservoir.
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Post by Torquemonster »

I like water as long as it is ECU controlled and mapped.

Ran 18lb boost on 9:1 cr in a STI WRX engine with 24 degrees timing on 91 octane with an aquamist setup running straight water.

Applications for NA have great potential but as said above - need a warning system for blocked jet, system failure or being out of water. A high cr engine will run fine at light throttle low loads to get you home - you just need to know when there is a problem so you don't load it up until the problem is fixed.
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Post by 407SBC »

I used to run the SNOW performance kit on my SOHC 98 Mustang and I thought it was the greatest thing next to the Novi 2K. My car was street driven race car with 9.3:1 compression, 26PSI boost, no intercooler, Novi 2K on cog. I never had any detonation running full 36* timing with 93 octane pump gas. First time out I opened the hood after running and put my hand on the Novi. Blazing hot! The put my hand on the discharge pipe where the 2 nozzles are located. Luke warm! Then put my hand on the aluminum intake manifold plenum entry. Cold to the touch! Aint no intercooler pulling that off no matter how much ice you stuff into the reservoir. Since then Ive sold the stang but was so impressed I kept the SNOW kit for myself. If my current 11.6:1 SBC doesnt like full timing with pump gas I may go back to the kit.

I know my example isnt a 14:1 NA deal but 9.3:1 with 25+ psi is workin it pretty f'in hard. Water/meth kit is awesome. Only drawback is filling the tank.
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Post by coolchevy »

actually doing this is very popular in Europe on almost any type of blown engine running on pump gas. From WRC Rallye cars to Bentley turbos to high boost application, running an additional Methanol/water injection helps a lot to let you make a lot of power more safely.

F.e., have build a customer LS2 engine (C5 Vette) and we are running 9.7:1 CR with a YSI Vortech at 20+psi boost on regular 100 octane pump gas, that would be about 96 octane your MON+RON/2 rating with a 50/50% water/meth mix.

System is a snow performance system because custome had it, my choice would be Alkycontrol though.

From 4psi onwards we spray with 2 nozzles after inter cooler, even at WOT blast in 5th gear for many minutes no knock and pretty low IAT temps. On the dyno, the difference between meth/water and just plain pump gas is about 60hp but a huge difference in IAT temps.

It will work on NA engines as well, however when ynd how to trigger it reliably is a bit more of a concern.
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Post by BrazilianZ28Camaro »

Excuses for the dumb question :oops: , but why he can't use meth/ water percentages in the gas tank mixed with gasoline?

maybe that "mixture" can't be homogeneous?
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Post by Dodge Freak »

Water floats on top on gasoline.

I recall back in the late 70's early 80's when many of the high compression 60's cars were still on the streets water injection was common but seems like when that "clean air" bill came around that and a few other things died off. Holley had a in dash control to adjust the carb jetting, there was in dash timing controls as well, only they seem to be still around.

Be nice if high octane gasoline could just come back to pump gas...fuel economy could be improved...emission controls could counter act the side effects..guess E-85 is now around...the EPA is waiting for a long term study to end about having 15% Ethanol instead of 10% in gasoline before giving the OK to raise the limit...still no talk yet about raising the min 87 octane ratings.

Edit...then again why not just sell one grade of gasoline for all street cars?? One would think any motor that runs good on 87 octane could have its compression raise a bit and that would help gas mileage..motors could be made a bit smaller too...just sell 91-93 octane..but then since the oil companies are making 10 billion a quarter they want no change.
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Post by PackardV8 »

The EPA is waiting for a long term study to end about having 15% Ethanol instead of 10% in gasoline
FWIW, as an aside, I keep fuel use records on all my street vehicles. Looking over the records of one of my summer-only rods I've had for twenty+ years, I was wondering what modification I had made back when to cause the fuel mileage to drop about 15%? AH HA, yes, that's the year Washington State mandated 10% ethanol in the mix.

thnx, jack vines
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Post by Torquemonster »

BrazilianZ28Camaro wrote:Excuses for the dumb question :oops: , but why he can't use meth/ water percentages in the gas tank mixed with gasoline?

maybe that "mixture" can't be homogeneous?
actually it's not as stupid a question as you think. Adding a tiny amount of detergent into the fuel will enable gasoline and water to mix and consequently burn. Try it in a container, it will burn right down to a mix of 70% water and 30% gas - but it has not real fire power left by then. :lol:

As for getting methanol to mix with the gasoline as well as the water - that I have not done

But as for trying it in your car - I'd be more careful. Around 10% by volume would unlikely cause any issues provided you can tune to suit. Higher volumes of water in the fuel could create serious problems.
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