ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

[77cruiser]

How do Corvette blocks machine? Most of them are made of gold it seems.

[ProPower engines]

FWIW there was some blocks that did appear to have much more nickel content to them but you would not see any
difference in the block till you were at the final honing stage. The block with more nickel seem to have a much brighter
finish or shine to the machined areas and the bores were much brighter as well compared to a run of the mill block but
that said it seems like there was no real way to ID them. Although some blocks that were considered to be high nickel
had rectangle casting identifiers in the valley. The 509 casting numbered 2 bolt 400 blocks did as well.
But then the blocks that had the 10/20 or 010/020 casting iD in the timing gear area were also tougher to hone and others were not so till you start to machine it you may never know for sure. The later 207 casting sm blk did have some higher
nickel content in the blocks from the Windsor plant and the main cap areas seem to be more nicely machined under the
outer main cap bolt areas as well.

I think that there was a lot of suggested differences back in the day because all we could do was read about it in car mag's before the internet came along. I remember our wrecking yard selling the at the time perceived GM HP high nickel blocks up here in the 80's into the 90's and getting $500/block bare.
At that same time all over the country they were thought to be the best there was for a HP build and like many found out you would never know if it was a 2 or 4 bolt till the pan came off while the 2 bolt blocks just went for scrap cause everyone believed the 4 bolt blocks were the only block to use unless you were replacing the caps that back then was not considered
unless the budget was big.
Then it seems there were some 4 bolt blocks that had the better cap material that seemed to be from larger trucks and buses with steel cranks but those blocks always showed signs of having much more nickel content in the castings

[Kevin Johnson]

About five generations have passed since the post-WWI article below. Nickel was indeed used in blocks and it was common knowledge.

As time passed and older machinists passed on their knowledge, metallurgy and foundry practice and standards also changed. A very human sort of numerology and mistaken coding associations also took hold. Not quite so many engine blocks from the Roaring Twenties still made their way into repair facilities but younger machinists remember comments made by or passed on by their Father, Grandfather, Great-grandfather and Great-great-grandfather.

https://books.google.com/books?id=IApGA ... to&f=false

[cardo0]

That book on nickle content of Cadillac blocks was dated May 1924. I don't think Cadillac was even part of General Motors at that time. I expect metallurgy to change a bit by the 1960's. Anyways the big inch Cadillac engines used the longest rod lengths in their motors of any auto manufacture. In turn Cadillac engines had the lowest amount of side loading on the cylinders which is my assumption produced the least amount of cylinder wear.

So what I get out of this thread is the Chevy casting numbers under the timing cover of 010 and 020 really mean nothing for casting metallurgy.
- just doesn't make sense when all the other casting numbers on block do have a particular reason/meaning.


Cooling rates have made differences in the hardness of the cast material for machining.
- the machinist that bored the Pontiac block for my GTO said the Pontiac block was much harder than any Chevy block he had cut. That may be my limited experience but it really stuck with me over the years.

I don't think this thread is over.

[Kevin Johnson]

That book on [nickel] content of Cadillac blocks was dated May 1924. I don't think Cadillac was even part of General Motors at that time. I expect metallurgy to change a bit by the 1960's. ...

I don't think this thread is over.

No, it is not.

If you perform a Google Scholar search you can find the following snippet from a 1932 SAE paper; General Motors holding company was started in 1908; Cadillac was added in 1909: [My emphasis] [The immediate referent is heavy duty engines]

Automobile Engineering Progress
AM Wolf - 1932 - sae.org
… The process of stiffening the crankcase and cylinder block continues. The use of nickel
and chromium in cylinder iron is practically universal. Molybdenum-chromium electric-
furnace cast iron is employed in the Hercules engine …

Aside: I had a friend who started work at the River Rouge complex in the 1920s as a furnace/pyrometer technician. Silly me, I neglected to ask him forty years ago what the alloy formulae were.

[ProPower engines]

That book on nickle content of Cadillac blocks was dated May 1924. I don't think Cadillac was even part of General Motors at that time. I expect metallurgy to change a bit by the 1960's. Anyways the big inch Cadillac engines used the longest rod lengths in their motors of any auto manufacture. In turn Cadillac engines had the lowest amount of side loading on the cylinders which is my assumption produced the least amount of cylinder wear.

So what I get out of this thread is the Chevy casting numbers under the timing cover of 010 and 020 really mean nothing for casting metallurgy.
- just doesn't make sense when all the other casting numbers on block do have a particular reason/meaning.


Cooling rates have made differences in the hardness of the cast material for machining.
- the machinist that bored the Pontiac block for my GTO said the Pontiac block was much harder than any Chevy block he had cut. That may be my limited experience but it really stuck with me over the years.

I don't think this thread is over.

You are correct in that some blocks do machine tougher then others but as mentioned there can be several factors that
influence the hardness when cast. Cool down has a big part of it as cast iron by nature if cooled fast will be much harder then a slow cool down.
The addition of other elements like nickle chromium molybdenum in specific amounts all make up the final material
in which the blocks are cast. Now the accuracy of those amounts vary based on the measurement method. Small pours
of material its easy to by on target but when you are filling a big furnace the size of the scoop used to shovel in the alloying agents will differ as production goes through a shift. I had relatives that worked at a big local industrial foundry here and I have seen the blending operation and while they may use an over head crane to load the furnace the volumes of material added were either mag lifted or shoveled by had into a small dump bin so I could see in a large production run where the furnace is not completely empty and reloaded the balance can be altered if they just keep loading to keep the pot full so to speak so they can keep pouring.

It is a science to figure out the ratios needed but the human error factor also plays a part if a worker mis-counts on a
specific material if there is a rush from being behind or what ever.

[Truckedup]

That book on nickle content of Cadillac blocks was dated May 1924. I don't think Cadillac was even part of General Motors at that time. I expect metallurgy to change a bit by the 1960's. Anyways the big inch Cadillac engines used the longest rod lengths in their motors of any auto manufacture. In turn Cadillac engines had the lowest amount of side loading on the cylinders which is my assumption produced the least amount of cylinder wear.

So what I get out of this thread is the Chevy casting numbers under the timing cover of 010 and 020 really mean nothing for casting metallurgy.
- just doesn't make sense when all the other casting numbers on block do have a particular reason/meaning.


Cooling rates have made differences in the hardness of the cast material for machining.
- the machinist that bored the Pontiac block for my GTO said the Pontiac block was much harder than any Chevy block he had cut. That may be my limited experience but it really stuck with me over the years.

I don't think this thread is over.

A guy who worked at a GM engine casting facility told me the the numbers, 010 etc, refer to the molds for casting and not the material poured into the molds.
Restoration guys who pay attention to casting dates and complete car build dates claim in the late 60's There are many Chevys with build dates only two weeks after the engine date codes...They were likely machining blocks that were still warm from the casting process........

[cardo0]

That book on nickle content of Cadillac blocks was dated May 1924. I don't think Cadillac was even part of General Motors at that time. I expect metallurgy to change a bit by the 1960's. Anyways the big inch Cadillac engines used the longest rod lengths in their motors of any auto manufacture. In turn Cadillac engines had the lowest amount of side loading on the cylinders which is my assumption produced the least amount of cylinder wear.

So what I get out of this thread is the Chevy casting numbers under the timing cover of 010 and 020 really mean nothing for casting metallurgy.
- just doesn't make sense when all the other casting numbers on block do have a particular reason/meaning.


Cooling rates have made differences in the hardness of the cast material for machining.
- the machinist that bored the Pontiac block for my GTO said the Pontiac block was much harder than any Chevy block he had cut. That may be my limited experience but it really stuck with me over the years.

I don't think this thread is over.

A guy who worked at a GM engine casting facility told me the the numbers, 010 etc, refer to the molds for casting and not the material poured into the molds.
Restoration guys who pay attention to casting dates and complete car build dates claim in the late 60's There are many Chevys with build dates only two weeks after the engine date codes...They were likely machining blocks that were still warm from the casting process........

Well then how come many, many blocks have no numbers under the timing covers? You would really need to talk with the tool and die pattern maker that made the tooling.

[midnightbluS10]

That book on nickle content of Cadillac blocks was dated May 1924. I don't think Cadillac was even part of General Motors at that time. I expect metallurgy to change a bit by the 1960's. Anyways the big inch Cadillac engines used the longest rod lengths in their motors of any auto manufacture. In turn Cadillac engines had the lowest amount of side loading on the cylinders which is my assumption produced the least amount of cylinder wear.

So what I get out of this thread is the Chevy casting numbers under the timing cover of 010 and 020 really mean nothing for casting metallurgy.
- just doesn't make sense when all the other casting numbers on block do have a particular reason/meaning.


Cooling rates have made differences in the hardness of the cast material for machining.
- the machinist that bored the Pontiac block for my GTO said the Pontiac block was much harder than any Chevy block he had cut. That may be my limited experience but it really stuck with me over the years.

I don't think this thread is over.

A guy who worked at a GM engine casting facility told me the the numbers, 010 etc, refer to the molds for casting and not the material poured into the molds.
Restoration guys who pay attention to casting dates and complete car build dates claim in the late 60's There are many Chevys with build dates only two weeks after the engine date codes...They were likely machining blocks that were still warm from the casting process........

I think that was actually posted on this forum by someone. I remember reading it here multiple times.

Edit: I've found it referenced but I believe I found the original post from 2005 at another forum. It contains quite a bit of information about the process.

http://nastyz28.com/threads/block-castings.10896/

I work at a GM foundry. We make engine blocks, heads & cranks.

The numbers you are talking about (010, 020) are only sand core identification numbers. The 010 is a side core for a small block chevy, and it does not guarantee that the block is a 4 bolt or not. Most were 4 bolt blocks, but some 2 bolts were built with 010 side cores, or whatever side core was available. The 010 designation has nothing to do with metallurgy (nickel content)

Each time we make a batch of iron, a 10 ton crane will move across the metal staging area and pick up certain metals and dump them into the cupola. Each batch is done this way, and the irom metalurgy between each batch can differ slightly. Certain iron batches are made for certain parts and heated to certain degrees. The only true way to tell the nickel content is by part number. But that alone is only a guideline, and cannot be relied on 100%. Most high nickel blocks will also have a brighter sheen after a chemical cleaning. It would be the same sheen if a standard block was shotblasted 2-3 times.

Iron properties will differ from each run. Some will be harder due to longer mold line time, and some are slightly harder due to a multi travel through the shot peening booth.

But don't be fooled that harder iron is better. GreyIron (blocks, heads) under a microscope look like a slivered chip, whereas nodular iron (cranks, carriers) look like perfectly round balls. Grey iron that is hard will easily crack. Grey iron that is soft will easily wear. Nickel blocks are nice to have, but they will also be subject to mold line time. In the end, it'just a brag to a select few if you have a nickel block.

You need to understand how sand cores are created & assembled to have an idea of what I am talking about. The timing cover front slab core is a different sand core than the side slab cores or the rear slab core.

Each sand core has an identification number, so we can trace it back to the core number if there is a problem with the finished product. Because once the block has been poured, and mold line time has expired, the entire block mold goes through a shakeout process where the sand mold is destroyed and the iron block is extracted. Once this happens, all of the sand cores have been destroyed, and the numbers on each facet of the block is all we have left to trace identification.

Other identification areas are just inside the waterpump holes. You will see water jacket numbers there. You will also see numbers on the underside of the block, next to the first cam journal. This is the barrel core number. The large single digit number near the part number is the drag core pttern number. Alongside that, you might see CFD or GM-D, which means "central foundry Defiance, or GM-Defiance. SMCO means Saginaw metal casting operations.

Every facet of a block or head will have identification marks to tell me what particular core was used to create that particular part.

And as in your case, some cores are universal. Even all the big blocks & small blocks we make today use similar iron recipes. Some may have hotter iron batches such as the 3.8 cylinder head, but the ingredients are the same.... unless it's a bowtie run.

Hope this helps.

[Schurkey]

1. I'm getting confused between the CASTING NUMBER xxxxxxxxx010 blocks, and the blocks that have 010 and/or 020 cast into the timing-cover area in the front.

2. If the 010 and 020 in the front referred to certain cores used in the process, wouldn't there be a bunch of OTHER numbers in there, from the large variety of sand cores used? We don't really believe that GM only had two sand cores to work with, one with no number, and one with 010? And why would there be core identification of multiple sand cores in the SAME AREA? (i.e., the famous 010/020 blocks) Doesn't make sense that the "side core" ID would be in the timing cover area, since "The timing cover front slab core is a different sand core than the side slab cores..."

I don't think we're ever going to figure this out. And I'm not sure it matters, although it is an interesting curiosity.




A related casting-info question: What does SGI cast into the bellhousing area of the newer small-blocks (for example, "880" Vortec castings) represent? Some folks claim it's Spherical Graphite Iron--the block is "nodular". I think SGI is the name of a contracted manufacturer making block castings for GM. Anyone know for sure?

[chevyfreak]

I dont look at block casting numbers no more. Cant always go by what is numbers is casted onto the block if the number meaning is set in stone so to speak and info that gathered from various sources .

Dont know if someone else found the same thing in usa or other countries, but i have found 3 instances where the casting numbers were off. My one 327 large journal the casting number says its a 307, and a friend has a 307 where the casting number says its a 327.
He also has a 305 casting number block but its a 350.
For me the best way to verify what it is , is to measure.

My one 4" bore block is a 3970010 block that has the same 010 and 020 numbers in timing area and the casting is so thin that 040" overbore is max.

My first sbc block i had were a 327 small journal block that the sleeves were so thick that it could go 0.125" overbore and still be safe.

Chevyfreak.

[MadBill]

...It is a science to figure out the ratios needed but the human error factor also plays a part if a worker mis-counts on a
specific material if there is a rush from being behind or what ever.

I read of a case that really put the 'human' into human error. A worker went missing at a steel mill. His wife suspected he had fallen into the cupola but the company denied the possibility until the investigators she hired obtained the relevant batch analysis, which showed exactly the increase in carbon content that would result from adding a 175 pound body to the mix...

[ProPower engines]

...It is a science to figure out the ratios needed but the human error factor also plays a part if a worker mis-counts on a
specific material if there is a rush from being behind or what ever.

I read of a case that really put the 'human' into human error. A worker went missing at a steel mill. His wife suspected he had fallen into the cupola but the company denied the possibility until the investigators she hired obtained the relevant batch analysis, which showed exactly the increase in carbon content that would result from adding a 175 pound body to the mix...

That would be the worst. You would see it coming then poof gone.

[rfoll]

I have seen the cast 10 and 20 numbers in the timing area on 400 blocks.

[Paul Kane]

I can't believe this rumor still floats round.

The ASTM recipes for grey iron do not call for any nickel. Furthermore short of converting it to steel, iron is best strengthened by adding small percentages of magnesium carbon etc to bring about spheroidal-moleculed ductile iron, of which no cylinder blocks are cast of which I am aware.

Back to the Nickel Block Rumor: Several years ago, I personally collected block material samples from both GM and FoMoCo for the purposes of putting this rumor to rest. The samples were prepared and tested in Silicon Valley under a half-million dollar Electron Microscope.



The results? There was no nickel in any of the grey iron Chevrolet & Ford cylinder block material samples that were tested, save for a bit of tramp alloy (ie, contaminant). In other words, zero, zip, zilch, nada.