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ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Cubic_Cleveland
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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by Cubic_Cleveland » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:42 am

dfree383 wrote:
1) Factory SBC blocks suck reguardless of the metal.
2) The stock stuff is a waste of time for racing (Thank you Dart, World, Bowtie and Others)
X1000!!!
And add in factory SBF for number 1 too :lol:

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by Mod77L » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:10 pm

dfree383 wrote:
Oh yea almost forgot....... The machining hardness differences in the stock blocks are because of cooling time of the castings not the metal itself.. :mrgreen:
The metallurgy of the material can certainly be a factor in the machinability of the block, so I can appreciate your cynicism regarding the heat treating of castings within the mold. However, I think you might be using the term "hardness" when you mean "toughness". Toughness is the ability of a metal to absorb energy. Hardness is the ability of a metal to withstand wear. Nickel improves the toughness of the casting, and helps to even out hardness throughout the casting. Having said that, I can take the toughest cast iron alloy you'd like to use, and make the brinell low enough that it will wear in half of the time required to wear the equivalent casting with a brinell that tests at the ASTM or SAE specification of the same alloy. So, one could say that both hardness and toughness will determine the machinability of the block. The heat treating of the casting while still in the mold will largely determine the hardness of the casting.

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by Bob Hollinshead » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:33 pm

Some of the late 80's-early 90's 4.3 V6 blocks were really soft. Heat treatment or material composition something sure wasn't right in them castings.
Pro question poster.

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by aajay » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:12 am

so if the whole "high nickle" is a myth, why are those blocks supposeably harder to machine? such as honing?
dyno sheet? or bull sheet..

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by kirkwoodken » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:09 pm

[quote="RAS"]You guys can believe what ever you want but it's all hooey. If you saw the tooling at Flint where these blocks were machined and how it was patched together you would be glad it ran. This was some really old tooling. GM did not make any special cast iron blocks that went into production cars. There were a few MkIV BBs cast that were pre 502 design castings (I had one) that went to R&M for some tests but not small blocks. If there was, Jenkins would have been doing the snoopy dance. One of the reasons for the LS build was the tooling was not runable any longer. Junk. If you have a block with minimal core shift it's gold. Have fun. Richard[/quote]

When I worked at Chrysler in 1994, we had refurbished the Van plant after a 4 year hiatus. The "square van" tooling and machines were moved to Mexico to make some more square vans, I imagine for the Mexican market. The old equipment had been used for 20 years and was junk. I couldn't imagine how it could be setup up and repaired to make any acceptable product in Mexico.

I can imagine the SBC tooling was in similar condition by the mid 70's. Typical to the industry, raw blocks are broached to size. A rough cast block is pushed through something that looks like a huge file, machining the decks and pan surfaces. The process takes about 2 seconds. That is the reason decks usually have taper from the front to the rear: because the entire fixture springs as the blocks are pushed through, pushing down harder during the ends of the operation. Efficient, but not perfect. The grade of cast iron chosen for blocks is picked, mostly, so the tooling will last the longest; not so the finished part will last the longest.

I do know from Brinell testing, some blocks are harder than others. I don't think that was intentional, just manufacturing variation.

We need to bring manufacturing back to this country and to hell with the environment. China is polluting on a scale we never dreamed of. We can do the same work here, more efficiently, with less pollution, as it has been done. Why should we sell them our raw materials and coal when we could keep the materials and coal here, and do the work here? True, some adjustments need to be made, BUT Germany is still doing it the "old way", but doing it more efficiently. 50% of German electric is now being produced by wind. French electric is being produced with fissionable materials being reclaimed from Russian nuclear bombs. We could be doing the same. For almost 100 years, American Made, not just Union made, products were considered to be the best in the world. With the exception of electronics, the Chinese stuff THAT I USE is crap. I'm totally disgusted with products, that once lasted forever, now not working when new, but the store will give you another one free. Unacceptable. Just means I have to burn more gas and waste more time, time that could be profitable. Railway business is booming these days hauling Chinese containers. What's wrong with this picture?
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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by avengerengines » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:21 pm

Kirkwoodken

I agree with you except the "hell with the environment" statement. If China decided to clean up their polluted disaster, it would take decades.
That place is a mess.
Bob

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by kirkwoodken » Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:03 pm

I'm a staunch environmentalist, BUT if pollution is going to be added to the world, why should it be added at the expense of millions of American jobs? The only thing our environmental laws have produced is cleaner HERE, while producing dirtier air THERE, at a loss for American industry. Like it or not, we are in a global economic war and the enemy is winning. Yes, I know, the stock market is at an all time high, but I personally reap no benefits from it. We are doing business with China because Henry Kissinger PERSONALLY profited from it. We have no national trade agreements with China. Kissinger was the middle man in many business contracts. I don't understand the logic of we can't buy cigars from Communist Cuba, but we can ship out our manufacturing jobs to Communist China. Is that not just supporting Communism, but feeding the growth of Communism? Were we not taught Communism was the antithesis of Democracy and Capitalism? I don't want to get into a geopolitical rant, but Capitalism trumps Patriotism and Nationalism every time.

George Washington wrote: "A nation is only as strong as its commerce." I interpret that to mean American commerce should be protected above all else; not just traded away to the lowest bidder.

I didn't want to stray this far off topic, but many of the problems we have today didn't exist 40 years ago. Like when gaskets used to fit and you could buy spare parts for your washing machine, and parts in a Delco box would be the same QUALITY as the ones you bought before.
"Life is too short to not run a solid roller cam."
"Anything is possible, if you don't know what you're talking about."
I am NOT an Expert, and DEFINITELY NOT a GURU.
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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by pdq67 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:53 pm

I helped install APGreens Jade-Pak 88P, (88% tabular alumina/10% chromic oxide/phosphate acid bonded), refractory plastic in a Brown Boveri "chili-bowl" shaped twin loop vertical tilt to pour channel induction furnace years ago at Galva Foundry, Galva, IL.

Sucker was fed molten metal from a Whiting #7 cupola if I remember right?

Anyway, we got the lining in and later at the American Foundry Society Convention in St. Louis, the guy's slapped me on the back and we BS'd about the furnace.

I asked how the lining lasted and they said GREAT, but it leached chrome into their malleable iron melt and made parts machining more expensive so they stopped using JP 88-P. Made their metal better is what it actually did..

Right, the best cast-iron GM poured for engines was used for the big Cad. V-8's. Not the run of the mill cheap Chevy's and such..

pdq67

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by peejay » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:22 pm

kirkwoodken wrote:True, some adjustments need to be made, BUT Germany is still doing it the "old way", but doing it more efficiently. 50% of German electric is now being produced by wind. French electric is being produced with fissionable materials being reclaimed from Russian nuclear bombs. We could be doing the same.
The US has under 20% of the world's installed wind generation capability and we generate 27% of the world's wind based electricity. No other country is generating as efficiently as we do, and only China has a larger installed base. And at the rate we're putting generators up, that's going to change in the near future as well.

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by z 28 jari » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:14 am

Old post,but we tested(just curious) today my sbc "vortec" -880 block.It contains:
Fe 96%
Cr 0.3%
Mn 0.75%
Cu 0.2%
Zn 0.1%
Mo 0.03%

Material TS-S5 or C1-2Mo

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by pdq67 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:31 pm

Mod77L wrote:I have always just lurked here, sponging info from all the rest of you, so this is my first post. I work for a foundry that casts ductile iron, so I finally have something intelligent to add.

The hardness of the iron can be controlled by the amount of carbides formed during cooling. Faster cooling = more carbides = harder, but more brittle iron. If you cool it too fast, you can get white iron. Tin or copper can be added to help regain the yield and tensile strength lost. The difference between grey iron and ductile (nodular) iron is the addition of magnesium. Magnesium is what creates round graphite nodules instead of flakes (grey iron). The round nodules are what gives ductile iron it's superior strength. Porosity is controlled through the gating and risering system. Most castings contain some amount of porosity. The trick is to keep it out of machined and/or safety-critical areas.

There should be no difference in alloy content between parting line and thick section material. The parting line flash may contain a slightly higher level of carbides, but since that area is usually ground off, and superficial only, it's metallurgy is not important to the casting as a whole.

Those are the basics, if you want to get down to what % of what alloy does what, that is what the guys in the lab are for, lol. :lol:
The ductile iron inoculating ladles should be stepped at the bottom so that the Mg can be put in the lower bottom so the molten cast iron can "pour" over it so that the nodularization(Sp?) process takes place.

And I have hid back inside the "molten metal" area building's great big I-beams and watched this done!

And got my ass chewed out later by the boss because it was flat f** DANGEROUS to be that close to the "fireworks"!!!

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by In-Tech » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:22 am

I'm curious about something that might relate to all the nickel jargon, or not.

When I was young I asked my Dad what the clock was for on the heads, blocks and cast cranks. He said that was the from the multiple molds in a row it was poured into from the vat and also if I have a choice, pick between 4-8 o'clock so I always did. In retrospect, he always seemed to know quite a bit about heat treat and cooling/quenching correctly. I wish he was around to ask alot more questions. :)

Any thoughts?
Last edited by In-Tech on Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by In-Tech » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:25 am

dbl post, sry
Last edited by In-Tech on Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by Schurkey » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:40 am

1. The idea that "cast iron" can ONLY contain iron, carbon, and silicon, anything else and it can't be called "cast iron"...is crazy.

2. Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Cadillac forums routinely convey how lucky those brands are to have "high nickle" V-8 blocks...unlike Chevy and Ford. I wonder how true that is. It does seem to me that those brands had less trouble with bore wear. There's an Olds web site that says Olds didn't need hardened valve seats or 4-bolt mains because of the extra nickle in the castings. They went so far as to say that two bolts into Oldsmobile iron was as good as four bolts into Chevy "mush" iron. That's how distorted the issue of nickle in cast-iron has become.

3. As said before, GM had a specific part number for a "high-Tin" 4" bore SBC block, but there was NO mention of nickle.

4. The first I ever heard about the numbers-under-the-timing-cover relating to nickle and tin was via one of David Vizard's books. There was a three-volume set for SBC, one was cams & valvetrains, one was bottom-end and blocks, and I think the third was for cylinder heads. Something like that, anyway. He was very specific about the "10" and the "20" relating to tin and nickle, although I don't remember the details and I'm too lazy to go downstairs and look it up again.

5. Don't get me started about the Damned Communists and their "Cast Steel" that isn't steel. But even I can admit that the precedent was set by GM's "Armasteel" trademark.

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Re: ARE ALL sbc 010 BLOCKS HIGH NICKEL????

Post by GLHS60 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:15 am

ProPower engines wrote:I did a pair of old blocks from the mid to late 60's recently and I could see a visible difference in the material when finish machined as well as a noticable amount of hone load required for a 525 stine and needed to use a softer stone to do the job.

The appearance of the finished block had a surface appearance that was brighter/ shined more then the opther block of the same era. Both these blocks had the 101/202 identifier in the timing gear area.

The block in question also had a loader ring to it then the other block when bored and the chips were different in size and brighter as well.


Any further o[pinions as to why. Like everyone else I thought ni9ckel content in the casting accounted for this
Dave
Around 1972 I was working in an automotive machine shop assembling Engines and the machinists often commented the 1968 and newer model year SBCs were "softer".

Especially the cylinder head guys who reamed the valve guides for what I think were 5000 series liners.

Anecdotal for sure but agrees with what you reported.

Thanks
Randy
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Alberta,Canada

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