Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Yah, consider that at 7500 RPM, each degree of rotation takes about 22 microseconds.
Generating a spark accross a gap is more than just volatge, the 'sharpness' or risetime of the spark also has influence.
This is one advantage of CDI systems, very short risetime allows firing dirty, oily, fouled plugs.
So anything in cap, wires, or construction of the plug that affects the risetime of delivery of the spark, like stray capacitance, inductance, leakage, whatever, can change the *effective* timing.
Could a change of 1/10 degree account for measureable power gain/loss?
How about 2/10?
Half a degree, you bet.
Carter
Generating a spark accross a gap is more than just volatge, the 'sharpness' or risetime of the spark also has influence.
This is one advantage of CDI systems, very short risetime allows firing dirty, oily, fouled plugs.
So anything in cap, wires, or construction of the plug that affects the risetime of delivery of the spark, like stray capacitance, inductance, leakage, whatever, can change the *effective* timing.
Could a change of 1/10 degree account for measureable power gain/loss?
How about 2/10?
Half a degree, you bet.
Carter
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioning the *accuracy* of spark timing. Most people here are using low resolution, one-signal-per-spark-event. Notice that the OEMs are using trigger wheels with as few as 10 degrees, 6 degrees, even 1 degree *per trigger event* - this provides far greater accuracy in spark timing than the old standard 1-event-per-90-degrees stuff that most racers use. THAT is worth power, and we've shown that on the dyno. It's not magic parts in an MSD< it's not Cryo treating a spark plug - the only thing that matters is that you have a spark that meets minimum quality/quantity, and that it's timed as accurately as possible.
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Very hard to disagree. The shape of the ignition advance curve is a major mapping concern.dieselgeek wrote:I'm surprised that nobody's mentioning the *accuracy* of spark timing. Most people here are using low resolution, one-signal-per-spark-event. Notice that the OEMs are using trigger wheels with as few as 10 degrees, 6 degrees, even 1 degree *per trigger event* - this provides far greater accuracy in spark timing than the old standard 1-event-per-90-degrees stuff that most racers use. THAT is worth power, and we've shown that on the dyno. It's not magic parts in an MSD< it's not Cryo treating a spark plug - the only thing that matters is that you have a spark that meets minimum quality/quantity, and that it's timed as accurately as possible.
Of similar importance is the spark duration which is where CD systems fail badly. In fact, Bosch no longer makes CD ignitions due to their very short spark duration period. Ford once made a hybrid ignition system that combined the ability of CD to fire large gaps and the ability of coil induction to maintain longer duration. It take more kV to jump a pressurized gap than it takes to maintain the spark thread. But Ford concluded such a system was unncecessary. Too bad, would have made a great racing ignition if properly mapped.
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
David Redszus wrote:Very hard to disagree. The shape of the ignition advance curve is a major mapping concern.dieselgeek wrote:I'm surprised that nobody's mentioning the *accuracy* of spark timing. Most people here are using low resolution, one-signal-per-spark-event. Notice that the OEMs are using trigger wheels with as few as 10 degrees, 6 degrees, even 1 degree *per trigger event* - this provides far greater accuracy in spark timing than the old standard 1-event-per-90-degrees stuff that most racers use. THAT is worth power, and we've shown that on the dyno. It's not magic parts in an MSD< it's not Cryo treating a spark plug - the only thing that matters is that you have a spark that meets minimum quality/quantity, and that it's timed as accurately as possible.
Of similar importance is the spark duration which is where CD systems fail badly. In fact, Bosch no longer makes CD ignitions due to their very short spark duration period. Ford once made a hybrid ignition system that combined the ability of CD to fire large gaps and the ability of coil induction to maintain longer duration. It take more kV to jump a pressurized gap than it takes to maintain the spark thread. But Ford concluded such a system was unncecessary. Too bad, would have made a great racing ignition if properly mapped.
These days I *always* use inductive ignition, I have had very poor luck using CDI ignitions on high boost forced induction engines. I was able to find coils from MSD that would handle 40psi+, but they'd overheat in street driving and shut down. Once I went back to individual coils and inductive ignition, problems solved.
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
When you develop an ignition map, how many different parameters do you consider as inputs to determine the correct ignition curve?
What are some of them?
What are some of them?
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
proper dwell mapping for the coils comes first.David Redszus wrote:When you develop an ignition map, how many different parameters do you consider as inputs to determine the correct ignition curve?
What are some of them?
then I use the following, somewhat in order of importance: manifold pressure (load), rpm, coolant temp, incoming air temp, power supply voltage, throttle position, and I probably missed one or two.
I try to run high resolution trigger wheels as the more frequent crankshaft position updates to the engine management system helps it put the ignition events in the proper place. Then depending on budget I like either the LS family of coilpacks, or for higher output engines the IGN-1A coils. They're so hot you can almost run an engine on tapwater with them.
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
In order to use those multiple engine parameters in the creation of an ignition map, it would be necessary to provide the appropriate sensors and a method of processing the data. This would seem to require an ECU of some sort. So how do carbureted engines, lacking an ECU, obtain an optimum ignition advance curve?then I use the following, somewhat in order of importance: manifold pressure (load), rpm, coolant temp, incoming air temp, power supply voltage, throttle position, and I probably missed one or two.
With independent coilpacks, the available coil saturation time is considerable and perhaps excessive. If so, then why do you feel a need for higher output coilpacks with their higher amperage draw? Isn't that a bit of overkill?I try to run high resolution trigger wheels as the more frequent crankshaft position updates to the engine management system helps it put the ignition events in the proper place. Then depending on budget I like either the LS family of coilpacks, or for higher output engines the IGN-1A coils. They're so hot you can almost run an engine on tapwater with them.
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
You can get an optimum curve in the dyno cell, but as soon as you put the motor in a car and run it in the real world, so much for the optimized tune up. So many carb guys just don't seem to get this.David Redszus wrote:In order to use those multiple engine parameters in the creation of an ignition map, it would be necessary to provide the appropriate sensors and a method of processing the data. This would seem to require an ECU of some sort. So how do carbureted engines, lacking an ECU, obtain an optimum ignition advance curve?then I use the following, somewhat in order of importance: manifold pressure (load), rpm, coolant temp, incoming air temp, power supply voltage, throttle position, and I probably missed one or two.
The systems I use allow control of dwell. I can draw less current than a typical CDI box on an N/A engine with 8 LS or IGN-1A coilpacks. I only set them to "kill" if I am trying to light a mix under 40+psi of manifold pressure. The energy required seems to go up proportionally with engine specific output. I have one customer with a street driven (Drag Week) 4-cylinder Pinto engine that makes ~6.5hp/cube. He runs 4+ milliseconds of dwell under full load/WOT, but around 1.0ms of dwell during the highway cruise. Individual coils give us lots of options.With independent coilpacks, the available coil saturation time is considerable and perhaps excessive. If so, then why do you feel a need for higher output coilpacks with their higher amperage draw? Isn't that a bit of overkill?I try to run high resolution trigger wheels as the more frequent crankshaft position updates to the engine management system helps it put the ignition events in the proper place. Then depending on budget I like either the LS family of coilpacks, or for higher output engines the IGN-1A coils. They're so hot you can almost run an engine on tapwater with them.
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Theory:
Cryo'd plug > more efficient voltage transfer across the gap > less energy used to produce spark > less load on alternator > less power used by engine.
There, mystery solved!
Cryo'd plug > more efficient voltage transfer across the gap > less energy used to produce spark > less load on alternator > less power used by engine.
There, mystery solved!
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
If one were curious, they might discover that cyrogenic heat treatments only change the crystaline structure of certain alloys. Those alloys are never used as electrode materials in spark plugs.Procision-Auto wrote:Theory:
Cryo'd plug > more efficient voltage transfer across the gap > less energy used to produce spark > less load on alternator > less power used by engine.
There, mystery solved!
The resistance across the plug gap is measured in megaohms. The resistance across the rotor/distributor post terminals is also measured in megaohms. Then should we not cryogenically heat treat distributor caps?
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Indeed. I say we start up a business and sell cryo'd ingition systems complete. I want 51% of the rights, deal?
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Did you know that 4/3 of all Americans are bad at math?Procision-Auto wrote:Indeed. I say we start up a business and sell cryo'd ingition systems complete. I want 51% of the rights, deal?
Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Sure, but it's not their fault! It's just too hard!
We ought to change valyue of Pi to exactly 3, to make the math simpler
We ought to change valyue of Pi to exactly 3, to make the math simpler
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Just ship the whole car to the north pole and back. Cryo'd everything!
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Re: Why do Cryo'd sparkplugs make more horsepower?
Please check your polarity.RednGold86Z wrote:Just ship the whole car to the north pole and back. Cryo'd everything!
The South Pole is much colder than the North Pole.