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Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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trmnatr

Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by trmnatr » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:56 pm

I have seen "engine builders" degree a cam for people and tell them dot to dot was good but they get the dot to dot off and ICL is way out

Now I have degree a cam for a customer to mock up, but before removing I mark the chain/belt to the cam gear and the chain/belt to the crank gear and they line it up dot to dot with those marks I made lined up

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by cnsperf » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:18 pm

I would like to add the thought that there are subcategories:

Assembler - someone who can physically put together the pieces with correct clearances, fit, cam timing, cleanliness, torque or stretch, etc.

Machinist - someone who can machine the components to the correct specifications or to the customer's requested specifications and someone who has the ability to correct errors that others may have made in past attempts to "fix" the part

Builder - someone who can do both of the above in addition to choosing a good selection of components that will complement each other and perform as desired (usually involves an interpretation of the customer's desire to have a "street car" when they really want a race car that they can drive on the street and get good gas mileage too)

Hack - the guy who watches too much TV and reads too many magazine articles and believes all the marketing hype and comes into the shop telling you how to do the things you spent the last 20+ years figuring out the hard way
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:49 pm

trmnatr wrote:
CNC BLOCKS wrote:
Mike Rogers wrote:Some one who designs ,machines and assemble the engine.
X2 and guys who have to farm everything and do no machine work or buys everything out a box I would call an engine assembler.

There is surly a differance between the two.

This should be a good debate!!!
GM's engine builders don't machine everything.

Saying if they have someone do the machine work would be just like saying, IF YOU SEND HEADS OUT TO GET PORTED your not an engine builder, and most engine builder do send heads out to get ported. Also shops I know that do it all (except head porting) have a dedicated engine builder in house and dedicated machinist who does ALL THE MACHINE WORK

IMO an engine builder is one who does assemble the engine and makes mods to the parts being used, adjusts clearances from factory and can use aftermarket or any part to make the engine a winner

An assembler IMO are like dealer guys who only use GM and dont check clearances and usually an engine builder corrects the problem when there is one.

Someone such as yourself IMO is the engine builder and machinist.
M

Mr Butch Moffatt

I consider myself an engine builder as we can machine every thing in house. Yes we so send out our head porting,

Now the guy down the street that has me machine every thing so he can put it together and he does go through all the clearances with his gauges ETC. I still think a person that does this type of work is an engine assembler!! As he does no machine, line boring. line honing, decking, cylinder boring. cylinder honing, lifter bore work, cam tunnel work, balancing, rod work, pin bore honing, block cleaning. cam bearing installation, cylinder head machining ETC. I consider myself an engine builder for sure and to call the guy down the street an engine builder who does nothing but check clearances and assemble his parts some else machines he is surely an assembler.

He has about 10 thousand dollars worth of tools and I have alot more then that in just my bore gauges and mics.
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by vetteman9368 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:48 pm

CNC BLOCKS wrote:
Mr Butch Moffatt

I consider myself an engine builder as we can machine every thing in house. Yes we so send out our head porting,

Now the guy down the street that has me machine every thing so he can put it together and he does go through all the clearances with his gauges ETC. I still think a person that does this type of work is an engine assembler!! As he does no machine, line boring. line honing, decking, cylinder boring. cylinder honing, lifter bore work, cam tunnel work, balancing, rod work, pin bore honing, block cleaning. cam bearing installation, cylinder head machining ETC. I consider myself an engine builder for sure and to call the guy down the street an engine builder who does nothing but check clearances and assemble his parts some else machines he is surely an assembler.

He has about 10 thousand dollars worth of tools and I have alot more then that in just my bore gauges and mics.
OK, here is a question for you. This guy down the street that you do all the machine work for, are you machining to his specs/orders, or are you making your recommendations, which he then agrees to? I see that as a big difference between an assembler and a builder. Not everyone has a million dollar shop, and I'm not sure its required to be considered and engine builder.

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by Mike Rogers » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:52 pm

Randy Dorton Head Engine Builder Doug Yates Head Engine Builder the guy in the shop honing the block engine machinist the guy in the clean room engine assembler.
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by JohnnyB » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:48 pm

bbc wrote:
CamKing wrote: You'd be suprised how many people who call themselves engine builders, think you just need to line up the dots.
Dots, what dots?? #-o
DOTS...??? Let me tell you what "DOTS" are. They are nasty colored sticky things that look like over sized pencil erasers. They come in boxes that you buy at gas stations and airports, they claim its candy. Wnen you attempt to eat them they will pull a crown off of a tooth in 10 milliseconds or less. Thats what "DOTS" are. Don't ask me how I know.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: And me dentist told me when they are out of the expensive DR approved crown removal crap, they use stale DOTS that they keep in the office to remove old crowns......THATS WHAT DOTS ARE. Them marks they put on timing chain sets are just flaws they leave on the parts to confuse ya... :roll: :roll:
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by beaker60 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:19 am

Ok,,,maybe his will sound like I'm beng a smartass,,and believe me,,,I'm not,,,but I have to ask this question,,because,,,with my limited knowledge,,everytime I have built an engine,,,when I went to start it,,,I closed my eyes,crossed my fingers,prayed a LOT,,,and said,,"God,,if you promise to make this engine run,,I will be in Church every Sunday",,,Ok,,now,,,here's the qusetion,,,,how is it possible,that everyone,including myself,has had,,and will always have,a difficult time finding a decent machinist,,,WHEN:every, crate,GM,Ford,Dodge,import,,whatever,,,engine is built in some third world country,by illiterate employees,,that haven't got the sligtest clue about,,tolerances,correct torque,BREAK-IN for cams,,,any of the stuff that we all dicuss here,,,as well as other forums,,,and these engines,,some quite powerfull,,hold together for an average of 150,000 miles,,,with nothing more than basic maintenance.Some of these engines produce as much as 400hp,they are very respectable street engines,,and they can be abused to the "enth",,,degree,and don't tear up.I mean the term,,"hecho in Mexico",,is stamped on a lot of GM crate engines and I can guarantee,,they haven't had the correct break-in,,,they haven't been run in dyno room,,they are slammed together in some factory with the smell of tortillas in the air,,,and yet,,,Some Dad out there,,,gives junior the keys to a brand new,,"whatever",,,and the kid goes out street racing,,and more often than not,,,nothing happens to that engine,,BUT,,,when it does need to be rebuilt,,,you can't find a decent machine shop to correctly repair it,,,not even a stock rebuild,,NOW,,,is it me,,,or is there something wrong with this picture.These are just some of the things I ask myself,when I have a customer who is really pissed off about his performance engine failing and he is asking me where there is a good engine shop,,,and I don't have an answer.

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by CNC BLOCKS » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:24 am

beaker60 wrote:Ok,,,maybe his will sound like I'm beng a smartass,,and believe me,,,I'm not,,,but I have to ask this question,,because,,,with my limited knowledge,,everytime I have built an engine,,,when I went to start it,,,I closed my eyes,crossed my fingers,prayed a LOT,,,and said,,"God,,if you promise to make this engine run,,I will be in Church every Sunday",,,Ok,,now,,,here's the qusetion,,,,how is it possible,that everyone,including myself,has had,,and will always have,a difficult time finding a decent machinist,,,WHEN:every, crate,GM,Ford,Dodge,import,,whatever,,,engine is built in some third world country,by illiterate employees,,that haven't got the sligtest clue about,,tolerances,correct torque,BREAK-IN for cams,,,any of the stuff that we all dicuss here,,,as well as other forums,,,and these engines,,some quite powerfull,,hold together for an average of 150,000 miles,,,with nothing more than basic maintenance.Some of these engines produce as much as 400hp,they are very respectable street engines,,and they can be abused to the "enth",,,degree,and don't tear up.I mean the term,,"hecho in Mexico",,is stamped on a lot of GM crate engines and I can guarantee,,they haven't had the correct break-in,,,they haven't been run in dyno room,,they are slammed together in some factory with the smell of tortillas in the air,,,and yet,,,Some Dad out there,,,gives junior the keys to a brand new,,"whatever",,,and the kid goes out street racing,,and more often than not,,,nothing happens to that engine,,BUT,,,when it does need to be rebuilt,,,you can't find a decent machine shop to correctly repair it,,,not even a stock rebuild,,NOW,,,is it me,,,or is there something wrong with this picture.These are just some of the things I ask myself,when I have a customer who is really pissed off about his performance engine failing and he is asking me where there is a good engine shop,,,and I don't have an answer.
I think you will find that the engines being built now days its all automated, Nothing is done by hand any more.

Alot of guys go to the cheapest shop and expect to get the best performance out of there engine its not happening. They get what they pay for!!!!

Example we build alot of circle track engines in our area and they run good and the guy that goes to NAPA or the local jobber shop, Those engines really don't run up front compared to the guys that builds racing engines for a living and do this every day. It cost money to go fast and run up front!!!!!

There are alot of guys on this board the build and assemble engines that do a great job and you may want to contact one of them.
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by avengerengines » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:44 am

In the good engine builder catagory, there's two kinds. There are local machine shops that are more than capable of doing basic machine and assembly work on stock rebuilds. The problem comes when someone takes a race motor to one of those shops. The result is usually much less than expected.

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by joespanova » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:15 pm

DrillDawg wrote:
Malvn wrote:I often wondered what many consider the definition is of a engine builder??

Jon Kasse

DD
There are engineers , engine builders , there are coordinators and assemblers.
Warren Johnson , Glidden would rank higher than Kaase IMO. IIRC , Kaase hasn't done too much in NHRA pro stock........at any time in the past ...........
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by DrillDawg » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:27 pm

joespanova wrote:
DrillDawg wrote:
Malvn wrote:I often wondered what many consider the definition is of a engine builder??

Jon Kasse

DD
There are engineers , engine builders , there are coordinators and assemblers.
Warren Johnson , Glidden would rank higher than Kaase IMO. IIRC , Kaase hasn't done too much in NHRA pro stock........at any time in the past ...........

I just used him as an example and did say in another post the there are a lot that rank right up there with him. I did not say he was the best, even though he maybe.

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by Keith Morganstein » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:07 pm

vetteman9368 wrote:
CNC BLOCKS wrote:
Mr Butch Moffatt

I consider myself an engine builder as we can machine every thing in house. Yes we so send out our head porting,

Now the guy down the street that has me machine every thing so he can put it together and he does go through all the clearances with his gauges ETC. I still think a person that does this type of work is an engine assembler!! As he does no machine, line boring. line honing, decking, cylinder boring. cylinder honing, lifter bore work, cam tunnel work, balancing, rod work, pin bore honing, block cleaning. cam bearing installation, cylinder head machining ETC. I consider myself an engine builder for sure and to call the guy down the street an engine builder who does nothing but check clearances and assemble his parts some else machines he is surely an assembler.

He has about 10 thousand dollars worth of tools and I have alot more then that in just my bore gauges and mics.
OK, here is a question for you. This guy down the street that you do all the machine work for, are you machining to his specs/orders, or are you making your recommendations, which he then agrees to? I see that as a big difference between an assembler and a builder. Not everyone has a million dollar shop, and I'm not sure its required to be considered and engine builder.

I would agree there is some gray area here. Someone may sub out the majority of the actual machine work, but does all the designing, spec'ing, assembling and testing with consistently impressive and winning results. Then they are certainly more than a mere assembler.
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by CREngines » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:04 pm

the one who pushes the envelope. if your not constantly improving then your not building anything new or diffrent. just assembling a copy of a previous piece.

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by raynorshine » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:13 pm

Keith Morganstein wrote:
vetteman9368 wrote:
CNC BLOCKS wrote:
Mr Butch Moffatt

I consider myself an engine builder as we can machine every thing in house. Yes we so send out our head porting,

Now the guy down the street that has me machine every thing so he can put it together and he does go through all the clearances with his gauges ETC. I still think a person that does this type of work is an engine assembler!! As he does no machine, line boring. line honing, decking, cylinder boring. cylinder honing, lifter bore work, cam tunnel work, balancing, rod work, pin bore honing, block cleaning. cam bearing installation, cylinder head machining ETC. I consider myself an engine builder for sure and to call the guy down the street an engine builder who does nothing but check clearances and assemble his parts some else machines he is surely an assembler.

He has about 10 thousand dollars worth of tools and I have alot more then that in just my bore gauges and mics.
OK, here is a question for you. This guy down the street that you do all the machine work for, are you machining to his specs/orders, or are you making your recommendations, which he then agrees to? I see that as a big difference between an assembler and a builder. Not everyone has a million dollar shop, and I'm not sure its required to be considered and engine builder.

I would agree there is some gray area here. Someone may sub out the majority of the actual machine work, but does all the designing, spec'ing, assembling and testing with consistently impressive and winning results. Then they are certainly more than a mere assembler.


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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by RichardThiessen » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:42 pm

You guys are getting bent outta shape over the two words; builder and assembler #-o . Doesn't matter what you call them or in what language... there are really, really, good guys who put motors together who don't machine anything and there are guys who have machines who do piss poor jobs. I would say generally though guys who have the machines that do both machining and assembling or building might pay even more attention to detail *in general* because its there job.

But I know a guy who does no machine work other than porting and he knows far more than any anyone else in the area. All he's ever done is build motors that go fast. And people go to him over all their other options.

Experience and results is far more important than what title you want to give them.

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