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Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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PFC1
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by PFC1 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:29 pm

I think if it takes being a machinist to qualify you to be a "builder". Then why wouldn't being a head porter be mandatory also? There is a lot more to building a good competitive motor than being able to make calculations and run a machine. I have virtually no machine equipment, I have a very good friend that does almost all my machining (he's a machinist). I do port and flow on my SuperFlow most if not all my own heads and intakes, pick the cam profiles, compression all the parts and see that it all fits and will run without issue. I dyno and tune on my DTS. So because I don't machine parts... I'm not a builder? Just an assembler? Well I "assemble" some very competitive running engines.

I think a "builder" is someone who can build something other than a SB or BB Chevy! Someone who can make big improvements over nearly any performance motor he has brought into his shop. Someone who can sit down with a clean sheet, build from scratch, "assemble" and tune a top in the class running engine.

Bret
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by MELWAY » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:53 pm

wELL SAID BRET!!!!!!!!!
3370lb Sedan 9.89@136MPH 358chevN/A

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by trmnatr » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:30 am

PFC1 wrote:I think if it takes being a machinist to qualify you to be a "builder". Then why wouldn't being a head porter be mandatory also? ] There is a lot more to building a good competitive motor than being able to make calculations and run a machine. I have virtually no machine equipment, I have a very good friend that does almost all my machining (he's a machinist). I do port and flow on my SuperFlow most if not all my own heads and intakes, pick the cam profiles, compression all the parts and see that it all fits and will run without issue. I dyno and tune on my DTS. So because I don't machine parts... I'm not a builder? Just an assembler? Well I "assemble" some very competitive running engines.

I think a "builder" is someone who can build something other than a SB or BB Chevy! Someone who can make big improvements over nearly any performance motor he has brought into his shop. Someone who can sit down with a clean sheet, build from scratch, "assemble" and tune a top in the class running engine.

Bret
Same thing i said too

An engine builder is someone who can build an engine, choose the parts and the engine wins. The person who does the machine work is the machinist. Some builders are maybe "master builders" if you want to call them that, as they do both the machine work and build the engine.

There are not many shops I know of that do machine work, engine building and porting. Reher Morrison does all of it or not???

I would say your a builder and cylinder head porter. There are some that specialize in one area, for example one guy here builds some of the best Ford engines

trmnatr

Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by trmnatr » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:33 am

MELWAY wrote:wELL SAID BRET!!!!!!!!!
X2

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by mike walsh » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:15 am

PFC1 wrote:I think a "builder" is someone who can build something other than a SB or BB Chevy! .

Bret
I just had to pick this out; Last "engine builder," we had where I work, he said it again and again, "there ain't no motor worth rebuilding except a chevy." When asked why he just said "Duntov." When questioned about what he said, "chevy." And when he was fired for 1)not producing, 2) rotorary gernades, 3) dirty assemblies(and i mean filthy), he said, "It's nothing wrong with me, you can't hold that tight of tolerances on a crank and expect it to run." ????????????????????????????? WHAT! That's what he said to me, I attributed it to being upset and maybe he was having a stroke......He now works at Wallmart!
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As I lay rubber down the street, I pray for traction I can keep, but if I spin and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride." -Amen

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by levisnteeshirt » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:48 am

my definition ,, is a prick that tells you what you don't want to hear ,, but he knows best , but sometimes its not so fun listening to him ,,lol ,,, i think they get a hard personality from watching people ,, like myself ,, try to cut corners and then it ends up hurting the situation instead of helping ,, soo they tell ya up front ,, sometimes its not always what you want to hear ,, but what you need to hear

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by donc » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:59 am

levisnteeshirt wrote:my definition ,, is a prick that tells you what you don't want to hear ,, but he knows best , but sometimes its not so fun listening to him ,,lol ,,, i think they get a hard personality from watching people ,, like myself ,, try to cut corners and then it ends up hurting the situation instead of helping ,, soo they tell ya up front ,, sometimes its not always what you want to hear ,, but what you need to hear
thats the best answer ive heard yet, we all know the type they walk in with magazine articles just like a chick going to a hair stylyst (I want this, as they point out in the publication) they think its so easy , they have also spent a small fortune in chrome stuff that you wont install, get p.o.d at you for telling them the truth. with that they go down the street where mr. flash gives him a line of b. s. and gets the job. this is one business where the customer is hardly ever right. they dont bother looking @ the diplomas or awards you get all over the walls they want cheap, fast turnaround , and sponsorship to boot.

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by CamKing » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:07 am

I have worked with some of the top engine builders in the country, and most of them don't do all their own machining.
I grew up around a group of the greatest engine builders of their time(Champion Spark Plug racing facility in Long Beach), and they didn't do everything in house. They had the ability to, and if they couldn't get it done right, they would do it themselves.

IMO, to be an engine builder, you don't have to do all the work yourself, but you do need to be able to check/measure everything that's done, and know if it's correct or not.
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by promachine » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:36 am

If you walk into a shop that has flatehead fords and late model dfi engines and blown gas boat engines and 410 sprint engines and import engines and early cads and late model hemi's. , you have found yourself a builder. A full machiine shop is not required but helpfull and a dyno is a must have.
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by avengerengines » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:56 pm

promachine wrote:If you walk into a shop that has flatehead fords and late model dfi engines and blown gas boat engines and 410 sprint engines and import engines and early cads and late model hemi's. , you have found yourself a builder. A full machiine shop is not required but helpfull and a dyno is a must have.
I got a chuckle out of that. In my shop right now I have a 1940 Lincoln V-12 flat head, a 427 Ford side oiler and a 598 twin turbo boss hemi Ford. :mrgreen:
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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by eric's 327 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:25 am

Assembler: puts the parts together, may order the parts or parts may be provided, follows a recipe, and if he is good there won't be parts left over when he's done

Builder: also knows why he's putting certain parts together to achieve a specific objective/purpose and budget, does mock assembly verifying clearances and specs and correcting when necessary, goes the extra mile doing all the small details that add up to increased power and longevity, matches and coordinates components to maximize performance, tests and retests

In other words, paint-by-numbers vs. art. To me who is doing it is more important than what you call what they are doing. At least, that's the way I see it.

Eric

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by raynorshine » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:30 am

engine assembler: assembles engine with supplied parts

engine builder: gets results
Use it up
Wear it out
Eat it all!

-the greatest..."Dale Armstrong"

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by cpmotors » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:51 am

20 years ago Joe Sherman, Grumpy, and Lingenfelter were my engine builder icons, lots of respect for those guys.
Since then I have learned in addition an engine builder is-
A guy that invests his heart and soul into what he does, no matter the brand.
Buys lots of expensive machines that need lots of tooling to do one little job the correct way, because his name is on it.
Puts themselves up for lots of scrutiny by people that may or may not know what they are talking about.
Relies on his experience and testing, and valued input from other professionals in his field when outside his range of experience.
Works a lot of hours because the demands of business and customer satisfaction is not by accident, but by determination and follow thru.
Spends a lot of time on the phone or in person answering customer questions, often more than once.
Spends more time doing paperwork than they thought possible.
Sleeps less than you think, even if it does take longer to get your engine back than you think it should.
Has to explain to the customer- repeatedly- why his custom engine of choice is not going to be cheap, why there are so many details on his invoice, yes, you are charging for that, no, that was not included in that operation, and yes, I need large amounts of money for your expensive parts up front.
Has to have a fairly thick skin when it comes to comments about what that expensvie engine costs from people that knew up front what it would cost-but cant complain about how the engine performs.
Does lots of little things along the way that may never get billed or be acknowledged by anyone.
Deals with parts that don’t fit right, vendors that don’t have decent phone manners or cant return emails, pays extra because that part is not in stock and there is a drop ship fee, tooling that is beyond expensive but there is no other choice to do the job right so he buys it anyway.
Works at earning the respect of his customers and his peers in a field of people that have taken and turned big horsepower into a science.
Is always learning and trying to keep up with the new developments.
Successfully completes the project to the customers satisfaction, and then gives the customer t-shirts and small logo stickers in hopes that they will put them on a visible part of the vehicle and it may bring in more of the same customers to repeat the process over again, only to hear complaints about the color/type of the shirt and never see the logos applied to anything.
Also learned a long time ago-
An engine builder title does not make him a machinist or good at what he does.

Edit- just to clarify- as my better half has pointed out I may sound like I dislike doing this-I take great satisfaction in doing it and have great appreciation for my customers trusting me to take care of them.
Pete Graves
CPMotorworks,Inc.
Custom Engine Machining
Cylinder Head Fixture for Vertical / Surfacing Mills

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by CREngines » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:38 pm

cpmotors wrote:20 years ago Joe Sherman, Grumpy, and Lingenfelter were my engine builder icons, lots of respect for those guys.
Since then I have learned in addition an engine builder is-
A guy that invests his heart and soul into what he does, no matter the brand.
Buys lots of expensive machines that need lots of tooling to do one little job the correct way, because his name is on it.
Puts themselves up for lots of scrutiny by people that may or may not know what they are talking about.
Relies on his experience and testing, and valued input from other professionals in his field when outside his range of experience.
Works a lot of hours because the demands of business and customer satisfaction is not by accident, but by determination and follow thru.
Spends a lot of time on the phone or in person answering customer questions, often more than once.
Spends more time doing paperwork than they thought possible.
Sleeps less than you think, even if it does take longer to get your engine back than you think it should.
Has to explain to the customer- repeatedly- why his custom engine of choice is not going to be cheap, why there are so many details on his invoice, yes, you are charging for that, no, that was not included in that operation, and yes, I need large amounts of money for your expensive parts up front.
Has to have a fairly thick skin when it comes to comments about what that expensvie engine costs from people that knew up front what it would cost-but cant complain about how the engine performs.
Does lots of little things along the way that may never get billed or be acknowledged by anyone.
Deals with parts that don’t fit right, vendors that don’t have decent phone manners or cant return emails, pays extra because that part is not in stock and there is a drop ship fee, tooling that is beyond expensive but there is no other choice to do the job right so he buys it anyway.
Works at earning the respect of his customers and his peers in a field of people that have taken and turned big horsepower into a science.
Is always learning and trying to keep up with the new developments.
Successfully completes the project to the customers satisfaction, and then gives the customer t-shirts and small logo stickers in hopes that they will put them on a visible part of the vehicle and it may bring in more of the same customers to repeat the process over again, only to hear complaints about the color/type of the shirt and never see the logos applied to anything.
Also learned a long time ago-
An engine builder title does not make him a machinist or good at what he does.

Edit- just to clarify- as my better half has pointed out I may sound like I dislike doing this-I take great satisfaction in doing it and have great appreciation for my customers trusting me to take care of them.
i should have that framed and hang it up in the office. very well said sir. my applause. =D>

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Re: Whats Your Definition of a Engine Builder

Post by 582r10 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:41 pm

If nothing else this ego fest is amusing to say the least.



I've built, rebuilt, assembled, whatever, a bunch of engines, transmissions, differentials and a whole pile of other crap. It just makes me a mechanic, that's all.




Roger the wrench
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