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3-D STYLE CUTTING ON VERTICAL MILLS (my research)

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Keith Morganstein
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3-D STYLE CUTTING ON VERTICAL MILLS (my research)

Post by Keith Morganstein »

It seems that many of us are considering how to incorporate 3 angle ball head tooling to be used on our existing equipment.
I have done a TON of research on this.

I talked to many users and suppliers. I.e T & S machines, regis, goodson, silver-seal and also several machinists.


T&S machines claims to have developed the dead pilot ball drive form tool system. Commonly called 3-D or regis now.(when he worked for peterson as an engineer) he was by far the most knowlegeable and informative of anyone.


He (T&S) reccomends the best set up for this (besides a dedicated machine) was using a bridgeport or other vertical mill . He said you also have to be willing to tilt the head on your mill (to reduce set up valve to valve on some heads)

He mounts a winnona air float table from a ph2000 on the bridgeport. adds a variable speed inverter drive, a 3 inch spacer to the bridgeport tower, ball drive tool kit, and levels

He quoted me $3000 for everything to convert the bridgeport.

He said the system used on other machines, IE seat and guide machines "gave everyone a taste and then they bought serdis"

But he definately thinks you can get very good results on a bridgeport or other full size vertical mill.

Most users of the systems on seat and guide machines I talked to can only achieve about .002" runout.

Recently someone here announced ball head tooling with lower guide suport being availible, but T&S didn't feel that or carbide pilots was a solution for sloppy machines.

Many hit the seat angle with a stone when they are done, but as T&S say's
"you have the seat just where you want it, then change it when you grind"

Hope this helps. I encourage you to talk to T & S machines in texas if you are considering this conversion.

He also reminded me they take visa and mastercard :D
Last edited by Keith Morganstein on Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by airflowdevelop »

Max,
Good selection of info! I just had another 1 hour conversation with Tim yesterday myself...He is manufacturing his cutter body for regis (the ones I had found). Tim's machine is a very nice piece, no doubt, And I may by one just to do seat work on...but I can honestly say, being a stone guy, a properly setup bridgeport is pretty dang hard to beat! their are other benefits though that a stand alone machine will not offer.

My Thoughts on the subject.

1. Dedicated high dollar seat and guide machines are great for production work, but are not nearly flexible enough for a smaller shop.

2. Using a small quil "econo" seat and guide machine with 3 angle cutters is a very BAD idea, you might as well drive the ball head with a rubber band.

3. Angle and intake milling is beautiful easy on a bridgeport, and exceptionally accurate.

4. Moving guides and relocating angles is a snap with a angle finder and DRO.

5. It is kinda hard to do general machining task's on a s&g machine.

6. for 10-12 grand, you can have everything brand new ready to go with tooling, and I cannot imagine anyone wearing even a chinese machine out just doing head work, plus getting someone to fix the machine is very easy!

7. I have to thank Meaux for talking me back into it after many a bad experience (Thanks Larry! :D ) due to the fact of all the nightmares I have had / fixed with dedicated machines. I know it seems kinda "redneckish" to be retrofiting a mill to do seat and guide work...but honestly, when setup properly, it is very nice!

8. Another IMPORTANT note, Tim has loosened up the guide clearance to work with most of the larger aftermarket guides availible now. If you have stock in original sioux stuff, you will want to make sure to get larger pilots, or have Tim tighten a couple ball heads up for you.

Also, and not to change the subject, but is anyone using tim's valve grinder?

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Post by Ape »

airflowdevelop wrote:Max,


4. Moving guides and relocating angles is a snap with a angle finder and DRO.

Dennis

Could you please elaborate on this very interesting topic???
What kind of angle finder etc. i have to do such work pretty soon on Mc-engine in order to fit larger valves and to change SSR.

cheers
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Post by airflowdevelop »

Ape,
As far as the angle is concerned, locate the existing guide with a precision ground pilot in a collet, than place angle finder on side of pilot, zero, dial head to desired angle adjustment. Make sure cylinder head is trammed before starting to mill head, so the angle and placement holds true for the remainder of guides. A drilling end mill should not locate off of existing guide hole after welded, or extreme oversized.

Relocation is done by locating existing guide centers (same as previous), zero DRO, then offset the amount. Maching for first guide, then stepoff standard guide centers, unless siamese port head (and some weird valve layout heads), then stepoff minus the offset for inside guides.


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Post by Dave Koehler »

Some confusion here.
I once owned a ph2000 and liked the float table part of it.
My questions are:
1: How do you float it on a segmented table? I assume this would be preferred in order to cut down on centering time.

2: Do you clamp it down or just depend on the dead weight?

3: Since the ph2000 tilts for the valve angle both ways why would one have to tilt the mill head other than for equal seat depths?

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Post by Keith Morganstein »

Dave Koehler wrote:Some confusion here.
I once owned a ph2000 and liked the float table part of it.
My questions are:
1: How do you float it on a segmented table? I assume this would be preferred in order to cut down on centering time.

2: Do you clamp it down or just depend on the dead weight?

3: Since the ph2000 tilts for the valve angle both ways why would one have to tilt the mill head other than for equal seat depths?

Thanks
Dave Koehler
www.koehlerinjection.com

#1 - not sure, but you might need a plate in between the mill table and float table

#2 - I think clamp.

on a side note, one user I talked to that had ball drive tooling on a
ph 2000 would let his table partially float during machining to get within .002" (still not so good)


#3 - I belive that is why he (Tim @ T & S Machines) wants you to tilt the head of the bridgeport instead of the table. So you can have the equal seat depths on one set-up


you don't have to use a float table,
but he is trying to give you some speed in set-up.
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Post by Ape »

Hi dennis,

thank you very much for your info, it was very appreciated.

cheers
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Post by highVE »

Very Very interesting. For the last 2 years i've been contimplating converting a mill into a S/G machine for cutting seats. i thought i had it all figured out by using the Rollover fixture that Goodson sells. But it sound a little more involved than i thought. Any links to websites of what you've been talking about? Like T&S? Thanks!!

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Post by Keith Morganstein »

highVE wrote:Very Very interesting. For the last 2 years i've been contimplating converting a mill into a S/G machine for cutting seats. i thought i had it all figured out by using the Rollover fixture that Goodson sells. But it sound a little more involved than i thought. Any links to websites of what you've been talking about? Like T&S? Thanks!!

Mike Theroux

This is the link to T & S http://www.tnsmachines.com/ you will have to call him to get the lowdown on conversion.
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Post by airflowdevelop »

highVE wrote:Very Very interesting. For the last 2 years i've been contimplating converting a mill into a S/G machine for cutting seats. i thought i had it all figured out by using the Rollover fixture that Goodson sells. But it sound a little more involved than i thought. Any links to websites of what you've been talking about? Like T&S? Thanks!!

Mike Theroux
How are we doing Mike?

What else do you think you need? A good 3 angle tooling set and a fixture is about it! This is one of those things (not at all different from stones) that it is more important "how" you use it , instead of "what" you are using.

I currently am playing with a PMS fixture...pretty nice for the price, and easily adaptable to different stuff.
http://www.precisionmeasure.com/

I have seen 2 different designs of the mcglogan fixture, both looked pretty stout...but they are not so easy to come by these days.

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Post by Keith Morganstein »

airflowdevelop wrote:Max,

3. Angle and intake milling is beautiful easy on a bridgeport, and exceptionally accurate.


Dennis

Just curious when you are milling heads and intakes on your bridgeport, do you use the PMS flycutter?

Do you have power feed or just crank it?

I have a resurfacer for heads and blocks. It sets up real quick for flat milling, but it's not the best machine for angle milling or intakes. It might be worth doing this kind of work on the bridgeport.
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Post by airflowdevelop »

it really is a nice feature....and yes I do have the PMS fixture, once you get the rake figured out (about .002), you can cut like glass.

I don't know how you would do it without a powerfeed and get nice results. a linear variable powerfeed is a pretty cheap piece, and their is nothing wrong with the chinese pieces.

indicate the base of the head with the amount to removed, set the powerfeed, figure your knee out..and Blamo....angle millage.

quick, easy, and true. you can also get many different multi blade cutters for different types of material. A little bit of opti-cut on aluminum, and base feed rate cutting .001 for finish is perfect if not a little too smooth for MLS gaskets!

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Post by airflowdevelop »

oh .. and one last thing..If you have an R-8 mill..make sure you but his R-8 cutter...try and stay away from collets or end mill holders for that big of a cutter...not a good idea, unless you like replacing alingment pins.

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Post by headman »

Max Effort wrote:
#3 - I belive that is why he (Tim @ T & S Machines) wants you to tilt the head of the bridgeport instead of the table. So you can have the equal seat depths on one set-up

A little advice for anyone interested...
Look for a way to articulate the work, not the head on your manual mill.
Trust me, life will be simpler. :D

The only way you will come close to equal depth on the seats, is to indicate off the deck surface of the head at a point equal distant from the guide center. You will still have to contend will deflection of the cutter, also the slight deviation of the guide centers will throw you off a little.

Some high end machines articulate the spindle for final aglinment, but this is usually done with a very low mass and free floating degree of freedom of the spindle.
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Post by airflowdevelop »

Wow! what about canted valve heads? Or are you saying don't worry about seat depth at all? I can keep everything within .002 - .003 on a canted valve head, not really paying attention...their is no way to do this that I have found other than tilting the head of the mill...

Dennis
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