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3-D STYLE CUTTING ON VERTICAL MILLS (my research)

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Dave Koehler
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Post by Dave Koehler »

Random thoughts:

I have owned/operated a Winona PH 2000, a Peterson TCM45 and a Serdi 100. The first two were impossible to use with seat angle cutters. The float table had to be locked down. As a result I have come to the conclusion that floating a table on a mill would be a frustrating exercise.
I would opt for the articulated table on a mill as mentioned earlier and use the PMS seat height tool.

I use the PMS valve to head surface gadget with the serdi and it still works fine for me for doing the valve seat height/depth thing. Easy and simple. I had the BHJ plate deal for a while but I always had problems using it while the head was mounted on the machine. The PMS deal works much easier and I can recommend it.

I looked over the T&S website and saw that an R8 ball adapter (TS-R8)was available. Way cool! One less tolerance stack up to deal with. Unfortunately, when I emailed them about it I was informed that it was not available and they always used the 3/4 straight shank. Weird

Of the 2 floating tables I have worked with, the Winona was kind of cool in it's quick setup but it requires a lot of height and the turning of the head to accomodate the angles of a twisted head make it not so desirable for a mill application.

The table used on the Peterson 45 was a pretty tough/sturdy made deal and uses a lot less height. It is longer to accomodate 2 heads. This is likely longer than most would need unless you are working on JD diesels. I would probably copy it since it is primarly made from plates making in within my fabrication capabilities. I would also likely make a shorter version just to fit one head, making it a little easier to move around.

Dennis,
Can you elaborate on what angle finder you use to dial the guide angle into the Mill head angle (assuming things are not perfect all the time)?

T&S listed a digital angle finder called the Equalizer on their website. Anyone have one and how does it function? There was no picture on the website so I don't even know what it looks like.

Now, the only question for me with a non floating head is centering the mill head up to the guide reasonably quickly. Is this going to be a touchy, feely kind of thing?

Later
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Last edited by Dave Koehler on Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by airflowdevelop »

dave,
As for locating the pilot into the existing guide...I would NOT use an angle finder. IMO it should only be used when "moving" guides.

As for finding the guide, on a wedge head, I tram the head of the mill, then level the head. Using a pilot stuck in a collet, or the ball head driver itself if it is long enough, place a pilot in the head and use a straight edge to locate the angle. Then a slip tube, or loosened collet can be used to move between the 2 points and verify location.

The same would go with a canted valve head with the addition of the canted angle, which I find after the primary valve angle.

Hope this makes sense?

Dennis
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Post by Keith Morganstein »

airflowdevelop wrote:it really is a nice feature....and yes I do have the PMS fixture, once you get the rake figured out (about .002), you can cut like glass.

I don't know how you would do it without a powerfeed and get nice results. a linear variable powerfeed is a pretty cheap piece, and their is nothing wrong with the chinese pieces.

indicate the base of the head with the amount to removed, set the powerfeed, figure your knee out..and Blamo....angle millage.

quick, easy, and true. you can also get many different multi blade cutters for different types of material. A little bit of opti-cut on aluminum, and base feed rate cutting .001 for finish is perfect if not a little too smooth for MLS gaskets!

Dennis

Dennis,


how many hp is your mill.?

you said R8 right ?
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Post by Hopper »

What RPM’s are you turning the cutter at? I’ve been thinking about using my Bridgeport for the same thing.

This is a great web site!!!
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Post by headman »

[quote="Dave Koehler"]Random thoughts:...

Now, the only question for me with a non floating head is centering the mill head up to the guide reasonably quickly. Is this going to be a touchy, feely kind of thing?


That is a real problem.
Aglinment is only going to be approximate.
Yet even the floating tables leave much to be desired.
Too many opportunities for misaglinment.
Making the world a better place... one pair of heads at a time.

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Post by airflowdevelop »

Max Effort wrote:
airflowdevelop wrote:it really is a nice feature....and yes I do have the PMS fixture, once you get the rake figured out (about .002), you can cut like glass.

I don't know how you would do it without a powerfeed and get nice results. a linear variable powerfeed is a pretty cheap piece, and their is nothing wrong with the chinese pieces.

indicate the base of the head with the amount to removed, set the powerfeed, figure your knee out..and Blamo....angle millage.

quick, easy, and true. you can also get many different multi blade cutters for different types of material. A little bit of opti-cut on aluminum, and base feed rate cutting .001 for finish is perfect if not a little too smooth for MLS gaskets!

Dennis

Dennis,


how many hp is your mill.?

you said R8 right ?
2 HP

R8

Dennis
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Post by Keith Morganstein »

[/quote]

2 HP

R8

Dennis[/quote]

Thanks Dennis, you're very helpful.

This has been a sticking point as my bridgeport is anceint. It has an unusual taper and only 1/2 hp. It's serial numbered in the 2000's, likely made in the 40's.

I have a line on another for the hauling away. It is R8 taper, probably from the 60's, but I think it's still only about 1 or 1 1/2 HP. I hope that's enough.
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Post by Dave Koehler »

I don't think HP is an issue for you as far as cutting seats. More horseys only means you can take some big, deep cuts at one swipe. Cutting seats on the other hand is a finesse thing.
I wouldn't throw out the old mill. You will always find a use for it. I will take it if it just absolutely makes you crazy. :D

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Post by airflowdevelop »

Max,
Dave is absolutely correct, for what you are doing, you are not even going to wake that motor up! very, very small cuts. Also, most drivers you find are 3/4" SS. So the taper does not mean anything, you will be using a collet or modified end mill holder anyways (which should be availible for your tape). Make sure the quill is tight, and the table and feeds can be locked...and you are in business!

The only problems I can see is if you don't have enough movement in the Y...you will need atleast 25" for most domestic stuff.

Thanks
Dennis
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Post by Keith Morganstein »

airflowdevelop wrote:Max,
Dave is absolutely correct, for what you are doing, you are not even going to wake that motor up! very, very small cuts. Also, most drivers you find are 3/4" SS. So the taper does not mean anything, you will be using a collet or modified end mill holder anyways (which should be availible for your tape). Make sure the quill is tight, and the table and feeds can be locked...and you are in business!

The only problems I can see is if you don't have enough movement in the Y...you will need atleast 25" for most domestic stuff.

Thanks
Dennis
My old Bridgeport is a B&S#7 taper and the largest collet is 1/2. I inquired, but it will have to use a custom adapter to run the ball drive 3 angle cutting system with a 1/2 inch strait shank. I can still use this machine for general milling.

I also want the PMS fly cutter and rollover set for angle milling and intakes that is why I'm thinking about more power.

With all the helpful feedback to go with my research, I think I will settle on:

The newer "free" R8 Bridgeport, the T&S 3 angle seat tooling kit, the PMS rollover and fly cutter package. This should make my shop so much more versatile and efficient.

(I don’t think I'll use air float and the required 3 inch spacer to go with it at this time)
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Post by Dave Koehler »

More Random thoughts:

The more I think about it, is there really any good use for a 360 degree rollover? Maybe if it was being used daily and most of the day. Anyone discussing using a mill fit that bill?

It seems like the extra height and weight make it undesirable. When I think back to the PH2000 it seems that the cross bars were always in the way anyway. The subsequent TCM 40 seemed like it rolled enough for anything we needed to accomplish. We just had to flip the head over for working the top. No biggie. The Serdi doesn't roll at all so thats a moot point.

The simple but sturdy holding fixure I made for my mill can handle anything I have run into so far. I will try to post up some photos later.

Maybe it's been mentioned before but if you stumble across the head fixture from a Storm Vulcan milling machine they work well on a V mill. Their leveling screw jacks are also handy.

New queries:
Milling head. Dennis, do you experience any interrupted cut marks (chatter) on cast iron or aluminum with the PMS flycutter deal?

Anyone milled any V8 blocks on a mill?

Anyone ever use a large diam. shell face mill? Pricey, yes but useable?

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Post by Keith Morganstein »

Dave Koehler wrote:More Random thoughts:

The more I think about it, is there really any good use for a 360 degree rollover? Maybe if it was being used daily and most of the day. Anyone discussing using a mill fit that bill?

It seems like the extra height and weight make it undesirable. When I think back to the PH2000 it seems that the cross bars were always in the way anyway. The subsequent TCM 40 seemed like it rolled enough for anything we needed to accomplish. We just had to flip the head over for working the top. No biggie. The Serdi doesn't roll at all so thats a moot point.

The simple but sturdy holding fixure I made for my mill can handle anything I have run into so far. I will try to post up some photos later.

Maybe it's been mentioned before but if you stumble across the head fixture from a Storm Vulcan milling machine they work well on a V mill. Their leveling screw jacks are also handy.

New queries:
Milling head. Dennis, do you experience any interrupted cut marks (chatter) on cast iron or aluminum with the PMS flycutter deal?

Anyone milled any V8 blocks on a mill?

Anyone ever use a large diam. shell face mill? Pricey, yes but useable?

Dave Koehler
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Dave,

I would like to see photo's of your set up. I haven't bought anything yet.

Bill Jones has a simple and sturdy system. It looks like just a couple heavy milling vises holding a fabricated bracket. I don't know how long it takes to set up on that.

http://www.ryanbrownracing.com/Bill_Jones_Page1.html

On the air float, I think it's an attempt to get production levels up. I suspect I will find that a simpler fixture is still way faster than what I do now...

I don't spend eight hours everyday on heads, but I do a fair amount. I'm hoping to reduce that time spent on valve seats and make a better profit on the jobs and increase volume.

Machining blocks on the Bridgeport. My friend had a very nice set up for doing lifter bores on his machine. He installed a 6" precision spacer (between the two main castings) to raise the machine. He had a block holding fixture with the BHJ bar and used the BHJ "lifter tru" tooling with that. This worked very well. He could have milled blocks on that machine, but had a beautiful Storm 85 blockmaster for that job.

I have the BHJ "blok-tru" tooling on my VN resurfacer, so I won't try to use the mill for that. My type of resurfacer isn't very convenient for angle milling heads or intake manifolds and you have to take the head off for cc'ing. So I would like to have the head milling function on the Bridgeport for the special jobs

I was looking at a milling head on ebay. It was 10" with 32 indexable cutters. It had a 2" center hole and went for about $300.
I wasn't sure enough to bid on it.

Keith
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Post by airflowdevelop »

Dave,
I have yet to experience chatter with the PMS cutter. Just like anything else, I think if you got a hold on the head, their won't be a problem.

I agree that a 360 rollover fixture is not nearly a necessity on the mill.

Dennis
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Post by k-star »

My .02

I ran bridgeport style machines for years. The single best cutter ever made for removing metal is the 3"diameter vr wesson wisper cut. It is a 5 inserted cutter and was designed just for a mill with a R8 taper. The problem is that they are not manufactured any more ( to the best of my knowledge) I have seen them from time to time on e-bay. They would be a excellent choice for a head that needed more then .001" or .002" metal removal.... alot of people cannot believe it but i use mine to finish the head also. But it is alot of work stepping over 3 or 4 times depending on what head you are cutting...


I have been looking for a storm 85B,,,but i am starting to consider a older mill with a CAT 50 style taper. They are a more ridgid machine and you can get a good used one for about 1/5 the cost of a storm... This typ of machine would drive a 10" carboloy style cutter and you could cut almost anything you wanted to in one pass.... But the draw back would be the fixturing to do blocks and heads with it...

Keith
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Post by Dave Koehler »

I whipped up a web page about my Mill fixture. It was easier than posting things.
The fixure is the same basic premise as Bill Jone's although I never would have thought of 2 vises for end supports.
I only own one is probably why. :D

Mine was designed based on what I expected to have to mount along with some unknowns, repeatability and from other designs I have seen along the way.

The pictures and notes should pretty much lay it out for those that want to make something similar.
Send donations. :lol: :wink: Referrals will do.

Go here: http://www.koehlerinjection.com/Koehler ... llover.htm

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