E-85 and Bill Gates

Post by **ClassKing** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:47 pm

Heard on the radio the Bill Gates dumped 84 million into a compnay that's setting up E-85 production plants. I have a customer that wants me to dyno his engine on it cause he lives in the midwest and already has access to it.

Anyone using it on a regular basis? Pros? Cons?

(Why ain't it in San Bernardino!!?)
I heard there was a place in San Diego....
long drive...

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Fri May 12, 2006 10:36 pm

I know that Gates has invested $ 84mm in Pacific Ethanol and the company just started producing ethanol. I do not know whether they will produce solely ethanol or E-85 and other blends. E-85, which contains 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, has a lower energy content than gasoline and also a higher octane rating than typical pump fuels. It can be corrosive, contains formic acid and encourages water separation; all of these have the potential to reduce engine wear, particularly in engines not specifically designed for E-85.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

BritishTurbo · Post by **BritishTurbo** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:29 pm

Don't forget that Sunoco 94 Octane pump gas is 90%Gas and 10% Ethanol... most people don't realise this.

My car runs much better on this gas than any other 93/94 octane pump gas...

KennyM · Post by **KennyM** » Sat May 13, 2006 12:24 am

Lets not forget that a fuel made higher octane with Ethonal is not alway better for heat content and power.
Straight gas with other octane improvers will make more power. Such as VP.

Post by **ClassKing** » Sat May 13, 2006 1:59 am

We've got 91 octane MAX in California now.
That's why I've done so much work on low compression big torque combinations. But even 87 octane is $3.39 here. Suck my bxlls you greedy oil bastaaaarrrds. I suppose Ethanol will by comparably priced when it does become available......

bastards.

Hydrogen is next. Our grandkids will be like: "Duh, grandpa, I've got a 3 valve intake."

quickd100 · Post by **quickd100** » Sat May 13, 2006 6:41 am

I converted my truck over to E-85 last summer. I'm still doing a little tuning. E-85 is 105 octane minumum. So far I'm very pleased with it. It starts and runs as good as any gasoline motor I've ever built. My mileage dropped by about 1mpg but I'm running on the rich side to keep it safe. I bumped my compression up to 11.2-1 and wish I had gone higher. Dave

Mark Workman · Post by **Mark Workman** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:26 am

It would be very interesting to see how a performance engine/fuel system with a clean-sheet design optimized for E-85 stacks up against present offerings. I have not heard any "problems" with the fuel that cannot be overcome with intelligent design. Now to get political...I would much rather see the $$$ stay here in the USA than sent to the mideast to buy RPG's and centrifuges for cutthroats. Hell, I'd even pay $5/gal if it would move things along faster. I read yesterday that someone has developed a continuous process to make crude oil out of PIGSH**. 3 gallons per day per pig. Now THAT"S progress!

blownzoom440 · Post by **blownzoom440** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:36 am

http://www.ethanolstill.com/building-Yo ... Still.html
here you can make your own alky for your car.thay have a ECU adaptor fot the computor for EFI.

KennyM · Post by **KennyM** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:39 am

That is exactly what has to happen, the engine designs have to be changed to get the power back from the lower BTU fuel such as raising the compression to get back the efficiency.
If the american auto makers are smart, they will do this and regain market share; but no, they won't do this for what ever reason just like all the other desisions made oppisite common sense.
As for gas in CA, thank you state gov for that situaion and the extra cost.
It's 2.85 +/- here at the moment.

Cobra · Post by **Cobra** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:40 am

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Au ... l.hrs.html

blownzoom440 · Post by **blownzoom440** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:57 am

brazil uses all of the crop waste,grasses to help produse the fuel and therfore cuts costs of producing it.allong with the use of the crop [sugar] to help produce it.

Engineguy · Post by **Engineguy** » Sat May 13, 2006 6:24 pm

Cobra wrote:http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Au ... l.hrs.html

That's, you know, like, sooo five years ago. There have been dueling opinions on this topic for years, and some of the spokesmen from academia that are always readily available to spout their "findings" (whether pro or con) have been shown to have strong connection$ to special interests... so be careful of believing any particular opinion... "facts" can be spun and twisted by these supposedly credible university frontmen to suit the needs of oil suppliers, oil refiners, tree huggers, agribusiness, Democrats, Republicans, OPEC, America appologists ("we're horrible... the source of all the world's problems"), America haters ("theye're horrible... the source of all the world's problems"), American defeatists ("we're stupid... we do everything wrong"), fearmongers, or the anti-everything crowd.

It's hard to know who to believe; macro models are often flawed by the assumptions made going in... what will the public do... what will investers do... what will competing energy sources do (i.e. lowered oil prices nearly brought Brazil's first go at ethanol to an end)... who goes to war with whom... what happens in research labs... etc. Apparently new enzymes that can nearly triple the ethanol yield from ag waste are right around the corner. There are scores of $82million (the standard number, it seems) ethanol plant financing prospectuses being floated around the country, far more than needed for MTBE replacement. If the picture painted by the Congressional Peak Oil Caucus (so named on the assumpion that oil production/discoveries have peaked, and will decline, while world consumption is accelerating wildly) hearings is anything approaching accurate, massive ethanol (and other biofuels, and tar sands, etc.) production better happen. Otherwise GM should forget about tooling up for a new 400HP Camaro and get ready to crank out 30cc diesel/battery hybrid mopeds and 90cc diesel/battery hybrid carpeds while the Army Corps of Engineers rapidly builds a few hundred new nuclear power plants.

hotrod · Post by **hotrod** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:12 pm

I've been running E85 for over a year now at 100% fuel, and a previous year with mixes of E85 and standard gasoline.

Start your tuning based on the assumption your working with a 100-105 octane fuel.
You will use essentially the same ignition timing on E85 as you do on gasoline although it will "tolerate" more advance. If you working with an engine that is not designed for E85 (ie not high compression ratio) you can create a synthetic compression ratio by adding some timing.

The engine will run cooler, EGT's about 200 deg F lower than before.

Start out with jetting/injectors scaled to give you +27% +30% more fuel than you did on high octane gasoline. You can go as high as +40% fuel and gain torque in some cases.

Most dyno testing shows a 5% -8% power jump when you go to E85. Techs working on an E85 version of aviation fuel saw a 600 aircraft engine on gasoline produce 650 hp on AGE-85.

You may have to run the engine cooling system a bit hotter than you did on gasoline, ie 180 deg thermostat vs 140 or 160 deg.

Although the E85 uses the same total ignition advance as gasoline its burn profile is different. The intial slow burn phase of ignition lasts longer but once the flame front gets well developed burn speed is actually faster than gasoline (especially from 130% to 140% of stoich fuelling).

Lots of references out there you may want to take a look at the wikipedia entry on E85 I put a bunch of stuff in there on proper mixtures you may find interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

Larry

Mark Workman · Post by **Mark Workman** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:45 pm

Engineguy wrote:
Cobra wrote:http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Au ... l.hrs.html
That's, you know, like, sooo five years ago. There have been dueling opinions on this topic for years, and some of the spokesmen from academia that are always readily available to spout their "findings" (whether pro or con) have been shown to have strong connection$ to special interests... so be careful of believing any particular opinion... "facts" can be spun and twisted by these supposedly credible university frontmen to suit the needs of oil suppliers, oil refiners, tree huggers, agribusiness, Democrats, Republicans, OPEC, America appologists ("we're horrible... the source of all the world's problems"), America haters ("theye're horrible... the source of all the world's problems"), American defeatists ("we're stupid... we do everything wrong"), fearmongers, or the anti-everything crowd.

It's hard to know who to believe; macro models are often flawed by the assumptions made going in... what will the public do... what will investers do... what will competing energy sources do (i.e. lowered oil prices nearly brought Brazil's first go at ethanol to an end)... who goes to war with whom... what happens in research labs... etc. Apparently new enzymes that can nearly triple the ethanol yield from ag waste are right around the corner. There are scores of $82million (the standard number, it seems) ethanol plant financing prospectuses being floated around the country, far more than needed for MTBE replacement. If the picture painted by the Congressional Peak Oil Caucus (so named on the assumpion that oil production/discoveries have peaked, and will decline, while world consumption is accelerating wildly) hearings is anything approaching accurate, massive ethanol (and other biofuels, and tar sands, etc.) production better happen. Otherwise GM should forget about tooling up for a new 400HP Camaro and get ready to crank out 30cc diesel/battery hybrid mopeds and 90cc diesel/battery hybrid carpeds while the Army Corps of Engineers rapidly builds a few hundred new nuclear power plants.

My thoughts exactly. Check out this link. Seems to me the author of the Cornell study, while highly educated, may have a personal agenda.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/f ... nolenergy/

Brianj5600 · Post by **Brianj5600** » Sat May 13, 2006 10:18 pm

Here is a guy that loves his E85. http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index. ... ic=47094.0 1066rwhp from E85. I'm not sure that could be done with any Super Unleaded. Now if I can figure out how toget it to work in a blow through set up.

Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

E-85 and Bill Gates

E-85 and Bill Gates

make alky.

fuel

E85