Plasma Ignition Systems?

[Lockwire]

" Anyone know who is researching ignition systems? "

One of the larger companys is well on the way with what looks to be reliable at this time. Large as in TRW or the likes. Stuart.

[kirkwoodken]

Actually, the Model "T" Ford had the best ignition concept. I don't understand why the points on the Ford buzz box couldn't be replaced by a solid state high frequency chopper, and have a distributor cap with large grounded segments between the plug wire contacts. The coil would fire continously to the grounded surface except when it passed the plug contact, where it would send fire to the plugs. Put enough space between the grounded part and the plug contacts so no fire would fly around inside the cap. You could make spark duration as long as you wanted it, depending on its frequency of operation. If only Tesla were still alive.

Does anyone remember the continous sparking ignition featured in a Hot Rod magazine about 50 years ago? "Timing" was adjusted by putting the spark plugs into different length sleeves and ignition was similar in effect to glow plugs, which have no trouble running miss free at about 25,000 RPM.

[Warpspeed]

I still remain unconvinced that lighting the fuse of a bomb with a really big match makes a bigger bang than lighting the same fuse with a small match.

Having a gazillion watt ignition system, should (?) not make any difference, unless there is something very wrong with what you are trying to ignite.

[kirkwoodken]

I still remain unconvinced that lighting the fuse of a bomb with a really big match makes a bigger bang than lighting the same fuse with a small match.

Having a gazillion watt ignition system, should (?) not make any difference, unless there is something very wrong with what you are trying to ignite.

And 100+ years of practice seems prove this is true. Back in the late 50's, my mentor decided to try dual ignitions. He used a standard Chevy Kettering and a Wyco "V" mag attached to the engine front. Both had wires going to the same plugs. The car picked up 2 tenths. Sparks were timed about 3 degrees apart, as I recall. I think a Spalding duel coil would have provided the same outcome, but can't prove it.

[MadBill]

"...unless there is something very wrong with what you are trying to ignite."

That's the crux of the matter. Not every combustion event is a textbook affair. In-cylinder pressure monitoring such as nitro2's TFX equipment shows that most are more or less 'normal', some are slow starters, some fizzle and generate barely more pressure than would motoring the engine and some just don't happen at all. The number of misfires and sub-optimal burns in what may appear to be a perfectly fine running engine can be a substantial percent and if a "lightning in a bottle" ignition system can give such events a kick in the pants to get going, the power gains can be substantial.

[Warpspeed]

Guys trying to do something very unusual, like igniting fantastically weak mixtures, or drowning the thing with gallons of nitro are certainly going to have some rather special problems of their own creation.

But the vast number of typical engines from stock to pretty wild should not have radical combustion problems, unless something is seriously wrong.

The idea that you can fit some magic super power ignition on an already healthy engine and pick up any significant power from it seems to me like an act of pure faith.

[MadBill]

The relevant combustion problems are not 'radical' but rather systemic.

Clint Grey/nitro2 or a few others could tell us quite accurately, but if one was to capture say 100 cylinder pressure diagrams in succession from an average well-tuned race engine, the I.M.E.P. of the best would likely be at least 15% higher than the average. In other words, if every event was 'right' (i.e. perfect), the engine would make 15% more power. Not all the variations are directly combustion related of course, but the effect of ignition characteristics re same is substantial.

As an extreme example, many years ago I put an early design CD system on my big block Camaro. WOT performance was a little crisper, but it misfired like crazy at part throttle cruise. If I disconnected the vacuum advance it ran fine, just as it did with the CDI off and the vac. reconnected. It seemed that the very short duration spark just wasn't reliably 'finding' a combustible mixture in the lean low-density mixture...

[Bazman]

Guys trying to do something very unusual, like igniting fantastically weak mixtures, or drowning the thing with gallons of nitro are certainly going to have some rather special problems of their own creation.

But the vast number of typical engines from stock to pretty wild should not have radical combustion problems, unless something is seriously wrong.

The idea that you can fit some magic super power ignition on an already healthy engine and pick up any significant power from it seems to me like an act of pure faith.

That was my view, and I was really hoping that running plasma would help me get past my current lean burn limit and go enough beyond the stock ignitions ability to fire a lean mix to regain the light throttle BSFC lost with a cam change. If that was all it could do and maintain current output, it'd be worth it. Unfortunately Turboranas experience of being unable to run any leaner kills that theory.... although it may be the engine wanted less or more timing to run leaner, there are variables that could affect his results... and when I feel like throwing away $3k on an ignition system and a bunch of trial and error dyno sessions I'll reconsider running it. Until then I have found lots of You Tube impressive videos and claims online but no actual factual real world results other than the 10hp David Vizard picked up... and notice power DROPPED on the top end.

If this is the ignition of the future, it's got a ways to go it would appear.

As for lighting a fuse with a big match or a little one - I think that analogy is limited in the sense that if the bomb can be exploded quicker, it has the opportunity to burn more completely in the available time it has to do useful work, also as you said, ultra lean burn requires an ultra powerful ignition... which is why I cannot understand Turbranas results. Prof M Ward was getting A/F ratios in the 30's to 40's and one of the key ingredients was a potent CEI ignition had had designed himself.

[Warpspeed]

If ultra lean burn is your goal, you may need to start thinking about stratified charge engines, and direct fuel injection.

If there is nothing surrounding the plug but fresh air when it fires, good luck solving that with a more potent ignition system.
While I agree more spark can definitely help in a borderline situation, it isn't going to help much where there is a healthy air fuel ratio, of well mixed atomized fuel, in a really well developed combustion chamber.

Another aspect of this, spending many thousands of dollars for an exotic ignition system, with all the dyno, multi exhaust gas analysis and data logging time to test it, buys an awful lot of fuel.

[Bazman]

If ultra lean burn is your goal, you may need to start thinking about stratified charge engines, and direct fuel injection.

If there is nothing surrounding the plug but fresh air when it fires, good luck solving that with a more potent ignition system.
While I agree more spark can definitely help in a borderline situation, it isn't going to help much where there is a healthy air fuel ratio, of well mixed atomized fuel, in a really well developed combustion chamber.

Another aspect of this, spending many thousands of dollars for an exotic ignition system, with all the dyno, multi exhaust gas analysis and data logging time to test it, buys an awful lot of fuel.

That'd be cool if we could do it. I wonder if it is possible to retro-fit stratified charge and direct injection?

Even if available injectors were too small for WOT they could be piggy backed by top feeders or normal sequential injectors as duty cycle passes a certain point (clean and green is only relevant at normal legal driving loads and rpms).

re your point about spending the money on gas instead - lol - you are right of course, but hey - it is all about the journey and trying to achieve something beyond what everyone else already is. If only Smokey Yunick and Tom (The Old One) were still with us, they'd help get the big engines lean and mean.

[Warpspeed]

It is coming....
The Japanese and Europeans are already into direct very high pressure fuel injection.
The next fuel crisis will probably start US manufacturers down this path, and when that happens the cylinder heads, injectors and all the other hardware will then become widely available.

The latest coil on plug, or coil near plug electronic ignitions now fitted to many modern engines are probably about as far as we really need to go with the ignition system.
The next step forward will probably be ultra high pressure direct fuel injection, and the corporate bean counters are probably the only real obstacle to it happening. The oil companies don't like very high mileage vehicles either.
Ten or fifteen dollar gasoline plus gas rationing might very quickly change all that.

[Bazman]

I just wish the OEM's would do the right thing and stop sand-bagging.

Another help would be fitting the engine with electro-magnets pulsing to "assist" the engine turning over and reduce (eliminate) pumping losses.

[DaveMcLain]

I just wish the OEM's would do the right thing and stop sand-bagging.

Another help would be fitting the engine with electro-magnets pulsing to "assist" the engine turning over and reduce (eliminate) pumping losses.

What's going to power the electro-magnets?

Honda experimented with a stratified charge design on the early CVCC engine where it had two intake tracts with one feeding a "cartridge" around the spark plug(richer mixture) and the larger one feeding the rest of the cylinder(much leaner mixture). I think it ran ok but it's been a long time since I've seen one. Maybe you could come up with an electrically controlled and actuated system that would connect at the spark plug hole and essentially retro fit an engine like a Chevy V8.

[Warpspeed]

A combined injector and spark plug sounds like a great idea, except they might be rather expensive to replace on a regular basis.
It is not something I know anything about, but it would seem that to get the very best from the whole stratified charge concept, plug and injector location, and combustion chamber shape would all need to be developed and refined as a total package.
It is not something you could successfully retrofit, it would require a whole new cylinder head.

[rookie]

Any initial/further testing accomplished with the 3-4 commercial Subject systems currently available to we racer's? Results? Any particular 'best' spark plug to use with the plasma spark? I went to the Blue Phoenix Web site & clicked on a 3+ minute video of a dyno test of that system on a David Vizard 500+-inch BBC. With/without the plasma engaged. I was a bit surprised in a couple of areas. The torque output essentially didn't change. That was a surprise to me. The HP was about +10 better with the plasma. And finally......... as best I could read the numbers, the BSFC numbers appeared to be slightly WORSE with the plasma versus no plasma. I'm not the world expert, but that also was a surprise. And the video didn't indicate how much 'tuning', if any, was accomplished between plasma on/off. Bottom line? I'm not completely 'sold' on the Plasma systems @ this point. -Dave-

I noticed the same thing. That was the main reason I didn't purchase a set to try out.

Is .44 vs .42 a major deal?