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E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Chevyfan70
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E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by Chevyfan70 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:18 am

Looking for info I'm E-85 vs alky and racing fuel. Anybody have any experience with using E-85 and the best place to buy a carb?

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by flyingwedge » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:24 am

I would first check the "Performance E85" webbsite, lots of good info. Cheers, flyingwedge.

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by jmarkaudio » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:29 pm

I've been working with it a couple years now, the only thing I see is you need to keep moisture out or you get corrosion and fuel separation. Zinc bodies and bowls are better to use, anything billet aluminum should be anodized, anything that has to be cast aluminum like a Dominator body should be at least alodine coated. You need a pump and regulator that will handle alcohols, and the regulator needs to be a higher flow like the Magnafuel large port to make sure you get sufficient volume to the carb. What are you putting it on and what size are you looking to do?
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http://racingfuelsystems.myfunforum.org
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BrazilianZ28Camaro
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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by BrazilianZ28Camaro » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:28 pm

Chevyfan70 wrote:Looking for info I'm E-85 vs alky and racing fuel. Anybody have any experience with using E-85 and the best place to buy a carb?

Overhere we have suggarcane alcohol since 1983, its hidrated with 5% of water. Its ISO octane is about 104 (RON+MON/2)

Your E85 should be around 100 octane due the percentage of gasoline.

Methanol is rated about 120 ISO octane and you must have about 60% more fuel flow to be burned. E98 need about 35-40% more flow than gasoline.

Alcohols build more cylinder pressure due the water content, but will hinder the air flow a bit due its added volume and mass into the head ports and yes, you need everything anodized or electroplated.

Alcohol engines like to run rich, then spect more frequent oil and ring changes.

What's your intended aplication?
'71 Z28 street strip car
Pump gas All motor SBC 427
3308 lbs-29x10.5 Hoosiers
NEW BEST ET
1.40 60' / 4.05 330' / 6.32@111.25mph

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99p13UK ... ture=share

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by governor » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:42 pm

First thing you need to do is see if anyone close by sells enough E85 to keep it fresh. If you are in a cold weather climate you will get the wrong percentage for racing as it is a winter blend with more gas. You will use much less E85 than alcohol, but more than gas.

I have used E85 in my 2 circle track modifieds for the past 2 years and plan on using it again this season. You will want to buy a fuel test kit and get a carb that has been converted for E85 use. I have seen many try to convert their own with piss poor results. I had John @ JDR Performance do both of my carbs, just goole JDR Performance. You can convert a gas carb to E85 but not an alcohol carb.

Depending on you useage and location to fresh E85 may make or brake the deal. You will have less maint with E85 than Alky.
Contact John and talk to him.

Gov
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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by Chevyfan70 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:30 pm

If I go with E85 I'd just buy a new carb and not worry with converting another carb. I live in the South so not worried about the colder climates. No circle track here only drag racing. I've heard of the higher maintenance with alky. I'm assuming the coating you guys mentioned is pertaining to alcohol?

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by lewy-d » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:31 am

If you have a test kit and discover that you got a batch of, say E72. What can you do/add to get it to E85?
do you need a 55 gal drum of 100% ethanol on hand?

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by Mike Croley » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:17 pm

E- fuels will work, but quality and specs vary a lot. Methanol makes more power and torque than ethanol, has a higher octane rating, and is a lot cheaper. Carbs are plentiful, a lot of very good companies produce them or will re-build yours. Some even sell kits to do it yourself. Mark Whitener ( jmarkaudio ) knows a lot about the carbs, he'd be a good man to talk to.
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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by Mike Croley » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:25 pm

As for the racing gasoline, race gas is a much more consistent product than ethanol or methanol, will make more power but not quite as much torque as methanol, has a much higher Motor Octane than ethanol, and costs more. Stores better than alcohol, but if stored properly any of the three will be fine. The specialty race gas ( oxygenated, nitrous specific, etc. ) will always make more power but at a lot higher cost per gallon.
Mike Croley
Florida Master Dist. for Renegade Racing Fuels/Methanol
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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by jmarkaudio » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:52 pm

Coating on parts pertain to both methanol and E85 or ethanol. Any fuel component that can absorb water will be more likely to corrode bare aluminum. As far as E85, in the middle part of Florida and south the fuel consistency has been real good, and I have not seen any less than 84%. As far as power with E85, it's all in the combination. A well tuned engine and car combination will see little gain if any with E85 however the consistency in ET is improved not only on a daily basis but from cold to hot weather as well. On a less than ideal combo the gains can be seen due to increased torque at and below peak torque. I reworked an 850 recently for E85, on the same day it went from 11.13 to 10.91 with a carb and fuel change. So there can be gains to be seen in some cases. Where in the south are you?
Mark Whitener
http://racingfuelsystems.myfunforum.org
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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by user-3597028 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:26 pm

I have had excellent results with Chris at Classic Motorsports in Sauk Center MN.

He builds, calibrates and Dyno runs every carb. Several times, or should I say a majority of the time, his jetting is dead on out of the box. We do a timing sweep, and try some other jets but I'll be damned if the way he sent them didnt work best.

He has done the carbs for all of our E-85 engines and the customers have been very pleased, running them right off the Dyno into their cars! Without changing a thing. One customer has gotten his 4600# Impala into the 10s with a oval port 505" on E85. He street drives it everywhere too.

He (Chris) guarantees his product. If you don't like it, he'll convert it back for free. He's never had one person take him up on that yet.

http://classicmtrsprts.com/

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by GOSFAST » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:58 pm

Chevyfan70 wrote:Looking for info I'm E-85 vs alky and racing fuel. Anybody have any experience with using E-85 and the best place to buy a carb?
Got some interesting literature just today, covers most of your entire question. Read the P.S. below! It is excerpted from the January 2013 supplemnt of "Engine Builder" magazine. It covers all fuels in the write-up but I only show the E-85 comparison, was all I was interested in!

Have a number of friends/customers using the E-85, excellent fuel alternative as long it's available in your area! It could pose some issues for guys wanting to run in events like 'Drag Week". One unit I'm involved with uses a recently installed injection setup, it's a 540" blown BB making in the area of 1500 HP, can now be driven on 87 octane gasoline for the Drag week show and then setup "on-the-go" to run the E-85 while racing!

Sort of like a "multi-flex-fuel" race car!

It's my understanding this ride mentioned above here will have a nice "spread" in the April "Super Chevy" magazine. Mark Sullen was very instrumental in getting this ride to some very respectable times while carb'd. He would be my choice for any E-85 carb work, before the injection the ride had two 4500's.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's the article, I've used mostly the "highlights", there was a little more to it, not pertinent to me.

Engine Builder (Supplement) Jan. 2013 (Pg. 35/36)

Ethanol: Ethanol is the up and coming race fuel as far as some people are concerned. Indy cars and NASCAR are
now using it, as are many circle tracks as an alternative to methanol or racing gasoline. Ethanol is promoted as
the "good" alternative to these other fuels because it can be made from renewable feed-stocks, it reduces our
dependence on petroleum, and is relatively benign compared to gasoline or methanol as far as its health and
environmental impacts are concerned.

Adding ethanol to gasoline boosts the fuel's octane rating. The improvement depends on the blend and the octane
rating of the base gasoline to which it is added. Straight ethanol has an octane rating of 130 (RON), 102 (MON), and
a pump AKI rating of 116.

Ethanol racing fuels which are typically available as either E85 (85% ethanol) or E90 (90% ethanol) blends with
gasoline, carry octane ratings of 110 to 116 depending on the other ingredients in the fuel.

Ethanol contains about 84,600 BTU's/gallon, which is about 27% less than gasoline, but about 30% more than
methanol. Consequently, a race engine converted from methanol to ethanol typically uses less fuel (30 to 40% less)
to make the same level of power. As an added benefit, the engine runs much cooler and reduces the risk of overheating.

As a race fuel ethanol is a clean burning fuel that leaves few deposits in the combustion chambers or on the pistons. It
is also non-corrosive to metal but can attack some plastics so fuel system components have to be alcohol compatible.

Ethanol is harder to ignite than methanol or gasoline, so it takes a fairly robust ignition system and a hot spark for
reliable ignition. Ethanol can also handle a few additional degrees of spark advance compared to gasoline because
it burns slower than the gasoline. Ethanol also likes colder spark plugs as a rule, and a somewhat wider spark gap
(.040" or more).

The air/fuel mixture for maximum power with ethanol can be as rich as 6.5 to one, and engine builders who have had
experience optimizing engines for ethanol say a compression ratio of 14.2:1 works best with E85 and E90 racing fuels.

(Article credited to Engine Builder magazine, Jan, 2013).

(Add) The ethanol (E85) from the local pumps has to monitored closely for the correct blend. There is simple testing
equipment for this in the field. Most race guys carry it on board.
Sept. 2019 - Drag-Week Winner - New York Street Ride 7.23+ @ 196+ @ 3800#+

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by BrazilianZ28Camaro » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:37 pm

You can test the gas content in E85 with a burette.

Fill it 50% E85 & 50% water.

The alcohol will mix with the water ,but the gas don't.

Wait a little and shake the burette to help water mix and see how many CCs of gas you have and calculate the percentage.
'71 Z28 street strip car
Pump gas All motor SBC 427
3308 lbs-29x10.5 Hoosiers
NEW BEST ET
1.40 60' / 4.05 330' / 6.32@111.25mph

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99p13UK ... ture=share

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by PRO SYSTEMS » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:17 pm

About halfway down this article is some good info for you:

http://www.prosystemsracing.com/120409scoop.html

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS

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Re: E-85 / Alcohol / Racing Fuel

Post by Eric68 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:19 pm

Chevyfan70 wrote:Looking for info I'm E-85 vs alky and racing fuel. Anybody have any experience with using E-85 and the best place to buy a carb?
Been racing with e85 for 6 seasons now, I don't ever plan to change back to gas or go to methanol. e85 is NOT corrosive if you keep it dry. If you let your carb sit all winter with fuel in the bowls (whether its e85 or gasoline or whatever) you will have all sorts of crap in the bottom of your highly tuned race carb in the spring. e85 will almost always make better power than gasoline and ET varies less with changes in density altitude than gasoline.

Methanol will make more power than e85, but it is corrosive -- whether you keep it dry or not. You'll also use a lot more methanol than e85 and twice as much as gasoline so its not a money saver like e85.

Lots of info on both carbs and tuning e85 here on my website http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com
E85 racer and E85 carb builder
www.horsepowerinnovations.com

68 Camaro 427" E85 powered small block, 9.95 @ 133 mph best motor ET through the mufflers. 1.319 best sixty foot.

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