Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

Post by ptuomov »

David Redszus wrote:Many years ago, I had the opportunity to ride around the Porsche test track at Weissach in a 928 driven by Helmut Flegl the design engineer of the car. He wrung more performance out of that stock car than I believed was humanly possible. Now I know better. There is always more to be had.
More is never enough and too much is just right.
David Redszus wrote:Notice the double humped torque curve in both the stock plot and the turbo version. A neat trick by Porsche to widen the torque band and make the engine much more drivable for the street.
The double hump in the stock setting comes from the dual mode resonance intake. It's either a single plenum intake or dual plenum Helmholtz resonator, mode selected with a vacuum actuated "flappy" valve. Here's the whole torque curve with the flappy valve open:
flappy-no-flappy.jpg
We'll fill in that little dip in the boosted torque curve by giving it a little more compressed air in that rpm range. We have a boost controller with 6 gears by 20 rpm cells to map the boost at each rpm and gear.
David Redszus wrote:The static compression ratio of 9.4 might be a bit too high for best performance. We have found that by lowering the CR it is possible to raise boost and produce a smoother, more consistent burn and make more power.
I have a 8.2:1 static and 6.2:1 dynamic compression engine in the garage. The plan was to blow the 9.4:1 stock engine to pieces by adding boost and then to swap in the low compression engine. The stock engine is not cooperating, however, as we have run out of boost without the stock engine having any problems. Some would say this is a good problem to have.

We're basically at the knock limit with the stock 9.4:1 compression engine at ECU load row 240 which translates to that 650 ft-lb torque. We could blow it up by letting it know, but we'd like to blow it up in an interesting way.
David Redszus wrote:
The exhaust manifold pressure was 32 psig static, and the quarter coin sized wastegate flapper's spring would simply give and open the gate. Consequently, we couldn't increase the boost pressure to fully compensate for the drop in the N/A torque curve.


The exhaust gas pressure is not static but varies considerably within each cylcle. Does the 32 psig reflect peak, average, or lowest exhaust gas pressure values?
By "static" I meant measured normal to the gas flow. Yes, the gauge is dampened to the point that this is the average static pressure in the manifold.
David Redszus wrote:We have experienced strange induction oscillations while under full boost at .6Hz, which caused considerable instability. The problem was evenutally traced to a low rate wastegate spring that interacted with the boost controller to produce wastegate instability. A higher rate spring immediately solved the problem.
We had inconsistent boost, too, for a while. But it was a problem with the boost pressure bending some hardware and causing leaks. Then we had inconsistent fueling, which we traced back to fuel pump controller. Then we run out of boost at the higher rpms. There's always some bottle neck...
David Redszus wrote:If I did not have far too many other car projects, I would also develop a 928; it's a neat car.
The car's great. it's a bit high maintenance, though. About as high maintenance as having a Persian princess as a mistress...
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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A very brief update of this 928 turbo project:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTl84Yu8Ie8
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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Great work ! I have an 82' 5 spd. Seems like the engine wants to be moved rearward about 5', and bolted to the t-axle ? I have a car, who has the labor ? BTW, Pete Ardema, makes those S4 heads, work real good, on a bbc. Cheers, flyingwedge. :D
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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ptuomov, what did you use to control the fuel injection? Factory ecu or add on?
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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flyingwedge wrote:Great work ! I have an 82' 5 spd. Seems like the engine wants to be moved rearward about 5', and bolted to the t-axle ? I have a car, who has the labor ? BTW, Pete Ardema, makes those S4 heads, work real good, on a bbc. Cheers, flyingwedge. :D
Isn't the bore spacing off by a bit? It's 122mm for the 928.
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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In-Tech wrote:ptuomov, what did you use to control the fuel injection? Factory ecu or add on?
The 27 year old factory computers. The interface to those with some custom code is produced by http://www.jdsporsche.com/

It's a batch injection with no individual cylinder trim and the car has unequal length intake runners. Still, it's close enough for government work to get the fueling about where we want.

More photos on this post for those who care: http://rennlist.com/forums/11508206-post852.html
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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Thank you and very very nice work :)
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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ptuomov wrote:
flyingwedge wrote:Great work ! I have an 82' 5 spd. Seems like the engine wants to be moved rearward about 5', and bolted to the t-axle ? I have a car, who has the labor ? BTW, Pete Ardema, makes those S4 heads, work real good, on a bbc. Cheers, flyingwedge. :D
Isn't the bore spacing off by a bit? It's 122mm for the 928.
>> Why yes it is, 4.803" vs 4.840/bbc.= fudge factor.
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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flyingwedge wrote:
ptuomov wrote:
flyingwedge wrote:Great work ! I have an 82' 5 spd. Seems like the engine wants to be moved rearward about 5', and bolted to the t-axle ? I have a car, who has the labor ? BTW, Pete Ardema, makes those S4 heads, work real good, on a bbc. Cheers, flyingwedge. :D
Isn't the bore spacing off by a bit? It's 122mm for the 928.
>> Why yes it is, 4.803" vs 4.840/bbc.= fudge factor.
Pretty close.

There's an exactly fitting alternative, of course. There's a forum member here who can stuff 4.25" pistons in the 928 block for you. 4.25" B x 3.75" S is a good start, right?
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

Post by lada ok »

I'm just stunned that you went to all this trouble, when you could have easily have bolted in a nascar 2 valve pushrod V8 with 875 bhp !

makes your modern 4v turbo look pretty wimpy lol
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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lada ok wrote:I'm just stunned that you went to all this trouble, when you could have easily have bolted in a nascar 2 valve pushrod V8 with 875 bhp ! makes your modern 4v turbo look pretty wimpy lol
I agree that it's wimpy now. That's why were swapping the engine so we can make it slightly less wimpy.

That Porsche engine is not exactly modern. It's 27 years old.

Opinions vary on engine swaps. Some people are brand loyal, I am not.

The punch line for me is that I think in terms of cost and reliability, what's currently in the car is fairly competitive with the pushrod engine swap.

Every modification that is currently on the car can be replicated for $20k if you bring an 928 S4 in good condition to John Kuhn's shop (http://www.kuhnperformance.com/model-sp ... twin-turbo). That includes fuel system, stainless exhaust, controllers, installation, etc. everything. For that $20k, you get a car that is very reliable and under 2500 rpm drives completely like refined German touring car out of the factory. Then it unleashes significantly higher but flat torque curve 4000-6000rpm with 650 ft-lbs at the wheels. I drove it for 1,000 miles on one sitting in 2010 after the first iteration was finished. Since then, I've driven it pretty hard and it has easily over 300 loaded dyno pulls on it, some pretty long. These engines last for tens of thousands of miles on the street even when boosted. In my opinion, it's not too far from a true supercar that might have left the factory in the late '80s (especially when it had the smaller gt3071r turbos fitted).

I know you're probably trying to start a flame war, but it's a legitimate question whether you could deliver the same refinement, reliability, and average power under the curve by using $20k to "bolt in" "a nascar 2 valve pushrod V8 with 875 bhp!" Do you think you could?
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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lada ok wrote:I'm just stunned that you went to all this trouble, when you could have easily have bolted in a nascar 2 valve pushrod V8 with 875 bhp !

makes your modern 4v turbo look pretty wimpy lol
On 93 octane fuel? In a street cruiser? You're dreaming up a dyno queen.
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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289nate wrote:
lada ok wrote:I'm just stunned that you went to all this trouble, when you could have easily have bolted in a nascar 2 valve pushrod V8 with 875 bhp !

makes your modern 4v turbo look pretty wimpy lol
On 93 octane fuel? In a street cruiser? You're dreaming up a dyno queen.
The Nascar engines that I've seen for sale idle at 2500 rpm as well. You could drive the black car in the video indefinitely without _exceeding_ 2500 rpm. Not that you would, but you could ! ;-)
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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ptuomov wrote:The Nascar engines that I've seen for sale idle at 2500 rpm as well. You could drive the black car in the video indefinitely without _exceeding_ 2500 rpm. Not that you would, but you could ! ;-)
True....that is until it wipes a lobe from too much low speed operation.
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Re: Dyno result for the risky business Porsche

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Ron E wrote:
ptuomov wrote:The Nascar engines that I've seen for sale idle at 2500 rpm as well. You could drive the black car in the video indefinitely without _exceeding_ 2500 rpm. Not that you would, but you could ! ;-)
True....that is until it wipes a lobe from too much low speed operation.
That will happen right after you replace the well used valve springs.
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