MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
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MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
Was wondering when is it beneficial to use a merge style collector, and how do you go about picking your choke point
Are pipemax type program accurate as far as sizing and taper of cones,or do you error smaller to be safe?
Ive gotten some data from pipeamx but it seems the minimum choke is big in relation to some other combos ive seen
Is it worth the hassle to build a set, or would a std collector achieve the same results
Im asking because i believe my collectors may be a bit large at this point so if im to make a change,i might as well go all the way. lol
Are pipemax type program accurate as far as sizing and taper of cones,or do you error smaller to be safe?
Ive gotten some data from pipeamx but it seems the minimum choke is big in relation to some other combos ive seen
Is it worth the hassle to build a set, or would a std collector achieve the same results
Im asking because i believe my collectors may be a bit large at this point so if im to make a change,i might as well go all the way. lol
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
pipemax is pretty accurate, but dont expect any real big gains unless would exhsut is restrictive, or sized wrong.
67 camaro
girly rollers on pumpgas:
420 - 641hp BretBauerCam, 1.39, 9.79 @ 137.5
383 - 490hp 224/224, 1.56, 10.77 @ 124.6
502 - 626hp 252/263, 049s 1.44, 10.08 @ 132.7
62 Nova cruiser
383/200-4R/12-bolt w 373s
224/224 HR cam
1.57 10.97 @ 121.2
girly rollers on pumpgas:
420 - 641hp BretBauerCam, 1.39, 9.79 @ 137.5
383 - 490hp 224/224, 1.56, 10.77 @ 124.6
502 - 626hp 252/263, 049s 1.44, 10.08 @ 132.7
62 Nova cruiser
383/200-4R/12-bolt w 373s
224/224 HR cam
1.57 10.97 @ 121.2
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
hey Raff you mind pm me so we can discuss some things
thanks
thanks
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Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
With a proper firing order like a 4 cylinder you can go real small like just bigger than a primary tube and then you can attach something like a megaphone and it will run good. You see abrupt large changes in area reflect strong scavenging effect over a narrow rpm range....
Small gradual changes in area can do it over a wider rpm range so you'd use a merge collector to preserve the area increace and spread it along the megaphone.
You only have 6.25x primary tube area to work with.
As for using the choke collectors on a v8. I wouldn't do it with your chitty chitty bang bang firing order unless your working on a set of 180 headers (the bundle of snakes found at the rear of a gt40)
Small gradual changes in area can do it over a wider rpm range so you'd use a merge collector to preserve the area increace and spread it along the megaphone.
You only have 6.25x primary tube area to work with.
As for using the choke collectors on a v8. I wouldn't do it with your chitty chitty bang bang firing order unless your working on a set of 180 headers (the bundle of snakes found at the rear of a gt40)
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Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
I have had lots of guys come to test headers on the dyno, and some want to try the merge collectors. I never seen anything even cose to what they cost as a result. Usually they are a little better way down in the RPM range, never at high RPM though. A few HP for sat 400 dollars is not a good deal. Pretty much a waste of time and money.
JOE SHERMAN RACING
JOE SHERMAN RACING
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Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
Ohh Joe, your gonna catch a lot of heat for this one.I have had lots of guys come to test headers on the dyno, and some want to try the merge collectors. I never seen anything even cose to what they cost as a result. Usually they are a little better way down in the RPM range, never at high RPM though. A few HP for sat 400 dollars is not a good deal. Pretty much a waste of time and money.
But i'll back you up 110 percent. I am one of those who have tested, and personally I think they are a band aid device for an engine that has parts not matched accordingly.
strangemagicperformance.com
Strange Magic Camshaft Technologies
Decisions on parts and advise should not be based on how much money a company can pour into marketing. This is a common mis-conception in the industry.
Strange Magic Camshaft Technologies
Decisions on parts and advise should not be based on how much money a company can pour into marketing. This is a common mis-conception in the industry.
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
My concern was that the collectors may be a touch big ,so i was thinking of reducing the collector size and going to a merge style is all
It has a 3-1/2 in collector now,so i was wondering if i go down to a 3" choke ,then back up to a 3-1/2" opening to the muffler would be ok,or if an even smaller choke size would work
I was told that at my elevation and power level ,that a 2.75 "or so choke size would be sufficient
PIPEMAX RECCOMENDS THIS
416ci from 5450 to 7950rpm
Diameter=1.933" to 2.058" Length=26.9 to 29.1"
--------2 step primary pipe specs--------
1st-1.933" length-13.5-14.6"long
2nd-2.058" length-13.5-14.6" long
--------3 step primary pipe specs--------
first step is the same as above first step
2nd-2.058" length-6.7-7.3" length
3rd-2.183" length-6.7-7.3" length
---------collector--------
Diameter-3.525" - 3.775" length- 15.1"
-------megaphone-------
3.025" taper to 4.025" 15.1" long
Best HP & Torque
26.9" length primary
Any opinions on this?
Thanks
It has a 3-1/2 in collector now,so i was wondering if i go down to a 3" choke ,then back up to a 3-1/2" opening to the muffler would be ok,or if an even smaller choke size would work
I was told that at my elevation and power level ,that a 2.75 "or so choke size would be sufficient
PIPEMAX RECCOMENDS THIS
416ci from 5450 to 7950rpm
Diameter=1.933" to 2.058" Length=26.9 to 29.1"
--------2 step primary pipe specs--------
1st-1.933" length-13.5-14.6"long
2nd-2.058" length-13.5-14.6" long
--------3 step primary pipe specs--------
first step is the same as above first step
2nd-2.058" length-6.7-7.3" length
3rd-2.183" length-6.7-7.3" length
---------collector--------
Diameter-3.525" - 3.775" length- 15.1"
-------megaphone-------
3.025" taper to 4.025" 15.1" long
Best HP & Torque
26.9" length primary
Any opinions on this?
Thanks
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Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
Yeah, scrap it all and build some 180 headers and use even smaller collectors it will make more power and torque all round.
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Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
Buy a set of those venturi collector inserts from Car Chemistry and see if they help, hurt or make no difference.
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
Well,building an entirly new set of headers isnt in the cards this season,but the colletors need done no matter whatenglertracing wrote:Yeah, scrap it all and build some 180 headers and use even smaller collectors it will make more power and torque all round.
Possibly over the winter i may try to come up with a different header primary design
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
I thought I remember some EMC contestants had said they found a fair amount of power in a good collector while testing?
A good merge collector and placing the primaries according to the firing order should help with scavenging the next cylinder. It shouldn't be a restriction because the exhaust gases from the primaries pulse through the collector and don't fire all at once. I can imagine screwed up valve events would not take advantage of the extra scavenging to any meaningful degree. I think this is why you see one person seeing little or nothing from a good collector while another sees very real gains at the track. Just my thoughts and one of those things I want to play with down the road.
A good merge collector and placing the primaries according to the firing order should help with scavenging the next cylinder. It shouldn't be a restriction because the exhaust gases from the primaries pulse through the collector and don't fire all at once. I can imagine screwed up valve events would not take advantage of the extra scavenging to any meaningful degree. I think this is why you see one person seeing little or nothing from a good collector while another sees very real gains at the track. Just my thoughts and one of those things I want to play with down the road.
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
The principle that is at work in a merged collector is this. The smaller the choke the longer it takes for atmospheric pressure to equalize into the back door of a given engine. It protects your power curve the same way as shorter cam timing and longer primary tubes. Just slipping a collector on with a smaller choke will usually show more power at the bottom of the curve. (which Joe points out)..bigjoe1 wrote:I have had lots of guys come to test headers on the dyno, and some want to try the merge collectors. I never seen anything even cose to what they cost as a result. Usually they are a little better way down in the RPM range, never at high RPM though. A few HP for sat 400 dollars is not a good deal. Pretty much a waste of time and money.
JOE SHERMAN RACING
The secret is that you can now shorten your header which is how you can make more power upstairs.
Header length is always relative to rpm band but also the size of the choke. Most headers have to be long because the collectors are so large. The longer tubes keep the reflected wave "back" at the lowest point on the power band that the engine has to pull from. Change the collector choke and shorten the tubes and you will see the power. If you can't shorten the tubes, do not blame the collector, and if you need shorter headers, call me...
I am using Joe Sherman's example as what will happen just installing on a existing header. If you can not shorten your header or get one shorter for your application, Joe is absolutely correct, they are expensive and are not a solution in themselves.
Calvin Elston
Elston Exhaust
Matthews, NC 28104
346-704-4430
Blog: www.exhausting101.com
Elston Exhaust
Matthews, NC 28104
346-704-4430
Blog: www.exhausting101.com
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
I actually tried to cal you Calvin and the number didnt work?
Ill try again sir
Ill try again sir
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
Big thanks to Calvin for taking the time to talk to me yesterday even though i wasnt his cutomer
He explained some things for me, and even gave me some baseline recommendations
I appreciate it very much sir
Have a great weekened ,and thanks agian for letting me pick your brain
He explained some things for me, and even gave me some baseline recommendations
I appreciate it very much sir
Have a great weekened ,and thanks agian for letting me pick your brain
Re: MERGE COLLECTORS,WHEN TO USE,HOW BIG A CHOKE AND WHY
What do you mean by 6.25x?englertracing wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2013 3:35 am With a proper firing order like a 4 cylinder you can go real small like just bigger than a primary tube and then you can attach something like a megaphone and it will run good. You see abrupt large changes in area reflect strong scavenging effect over a narrow rpm range....
Small gradual changes in area can do it over a wider rpm range so you'd use a merge collector to preserve the area increace and spread it along the megaphone.
You only have 6.25x primary tube area to work with.
Paradigms often shift without the clutch -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxn-LxwsrnU
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