Dumb history question for the carb guys

[Walter R. Malik]

I do believe that its modular design lends itself to being easily modified.

[SupStk]

And that safety wire was OEM on truck governor holley carbs

The safety wire on GM truck carbs was a tamper proof item. GM rebuild kits for those carbs came with safety wire and lead seals.

[HQM383]

I do believe that its modular design lends itself to being easily modified.

Have to agree there. The ease of the average hot rodder over the years to swap out jets and give themselves a sense of being a master of their own tuning would trump the carbs ability as a fuel metering device, especially in pre in-car afr gauge times. Then there's the advent of screw in air bleeds, ifr and emulsion on top of that. It's well and truly cast in stone now as the performance go to carb.

[PackardV8]

I didn't re-read all five pages of this thread, but back on page one the OP was asking about daily drivers as much as about racing; there was also mention of the QuadraJet and the Thermoquad. IIRC, these were the last two clean-sheet carburetor designs before fuel injection. Both of those carbs, when freed from the emissions control compromises of the day, are arguably the best street-driver carburetors ever. The tiny primaries give the optimum response and fuel economy for the 99% of use and the giant secondaries open slowly for top end power in the rare occasions when needed.

[Geoff2]

Yep, Jack, best ever...

[1980RS]

Something I've always wondered.... How did the the Holley design get to be the #1 carb choice among the street/strip crowd?

I've always been more into "drivers" than race cars, and I never really paid much attention to the inner-workings of Holley carbs. I've recently been reading a bit trying to understand the various circuits and operation of Holley carbs.

In my opinion, it really seems like a crude design for anything other than WOT when you compare it to a Q-jet, Thermoquad, AVS, AFB, etc. Particularly the power system. Also, the number of seals, gaskets, and other loose parts seems to put it at a real disadvantage when compared to almost any other carb design. The Carters and Rochesters just seem more "refined", and all of them can work on most applications if tuned properly.

So the question is, what features made the Holley so popular with the street / strip crowd? I can't help but feel I am missing something, but I just don't get it. Can someone enlighten me as to why it has become "the" carb to use? When did the Holley design really take over the marketplace, and why?

Holley has been awarded with many accomplishments that they don't deserve.
Annular Boosters were used in 1965 Ford carburetors. Holley had to pay Ford to use these, up until Ford stopped using carburetors.
The first 3 circuit Holley carb was on a Chrysler OEM.
Quick fuel was innovative so Holley bought them as with Barry Grant ( Idle-Eze )

The original 3310 would have been funded by GM to their specifications. Later to become an aftermarket carb 3310-1 with dogleg boosters and distribution tabs ,Secondary metering blocks , dual power valves , and the brass tube in the primary venturi for the secondary diaphragm like the originals. This carb sold so well Holley thought they should cheapen it up and ride on its popularity. The 3310-2 lost the dogleg boosters and secondary metering block. 3310-3 lost the brass tube. Aftermarket buyers don't know.
You see where this is going.
Holley spread bore , with poor metering ,was a replacement for the Quadrajet .
A lot of OEM Holley carburetors metered fuel much better. ( not just for Emissions ) List 4803 1971 LS6 Corvette and List 4346 1969 COPO Chevelle have a lower air bleed in the main venturi ( like a Quadrajet ) and dual power valves that worked in progression. I have both of these carbs and witnessed the AFR's on my BBC.

I restore a lot of the old carbs and have tested some of them with an AFR gauge.

If I am mistaken about the above please respond. Read the below from TUNER.

Tuner Wrote
"In 1965 I started working in a speed shop and actually sold more QJets than Holleys that summer. There were several magazine articles about what an excellent carb the new QJet was and how it was revolutionary, a huge carb and a small carb all at once, and best of all - easy to tune because the huge secondary has the easy to change metering rods.  

The hot selling carb deal was a “D-series” AFB for a 300-340 HP 327 Chevy, 3721S, with an Eelco or Offy adaptor plate to put it on the original small 4 bbl 283 or 250 HP 327 WCFB or Rochester 4-Jet intake, $29.95. Sold ‘em like hotcakes. 

The Carter AFB was the preferred racing carb because it was the carb on the factory race engines, 421 Pontiac, 409 Chevy and 413-426 Mopar, Ford was stuck with the Holleys.

I don’t expect you to believe this, but there was a time before Colt Industries acquired Holley that you almost couldn’t give away a new Holley carb because they were synonymous with Grandma’s Lincoln and Aunt Bessie’s Rambler, big trucks with governors, taxis and such.  

When the 3310 and other Chevy 780-800 CFM carbs became plentiful and cheap because so many were produced they pulled a big market share from the AFB and Rochester.  

When Colt Industries started their advertizing blitz it was essentially like a political campaign operates -- never mind your own strong points, criticize and defame your opponent -- and with that the Quadra-Toilet, Quadra-Junk, et al, was born. 

I suppose for anyone born after double pumpers came on the aftermarket in 1970 this is just nonsense and carburetors are all just perfect right out of the box. Don’t burn your headers off on the return road."

Funny you should mention this, I have a 3721 here that is like brand new with the box no less. $29.95 LOL. I have had some pretty good offers for it these days.

20171121_214006.jpg

20171121_213852.jpg

[rgalajda]

Something I've always wondered.... How did the the Holley design get to be the #1 carb choice among the street/strip crowd?

I've always been more into "drivers" than race cars, and I never really paid much attention to the inner-workings of Holley carbs. I've recently been reading a bit trying to understand the various circuits and operation of Holley carbs.

In my opinion, it really seems like a crude design for anything other than WOT when you compare it to a Q-jet, Thermoquad, AVS, AFB, etc. Particularly the power system. Also, the number of seals, gaskets, and other loose parts seems to put it at a real disadvantage when compared to almost any other carb design. The Carters and Rochesters just seem more "refined", and all of them can work on most applications if tuned properly.

So the question is, what features made the Holley so popular with the street / strip crowd? I can't help but feel I am missing something, but I just don't get it. Can someone enlighten me as to why it has become "the" carb to use? When did the Holley design really take over the marketplace, and why?

Holley has been awarded with many accomplishments that they don't deserve.
Annular Boosters were used in 1965 Ford carburetors. Holley had to pay Ford to use these, up until Ford stopped using carburetors.
The first 3 circuit Holley carb was on a Chrysler OEM.
Quick fuel was innovative so Holley bought them as with Barry Grant ( Idle-Eze )

The original 3310 would have been funded by GM to their specifications. Later to become an aftermarket carb 3310-1 with dogleg boosters and distribution tabs ,Secondary metering blocks , dual power valves , and the brass tube in the primary venturi for the secondary diaphragm like the originals. This carb sold so well Holley thought they should cheapen it up and ride on its popularity. The 3310-2 lost the dogleg boosters and secondary metering block. 3310-3 lost the brass tube. Aftermarket buyers don't know.
You see where this is going.
Holley spread bore , with poor metering ,was a replacement for the Quadrajet .
A lot of OEM Holley carburetors metered fuel much better. ( not just for Emissions ) List 4803 1971 LS6 Corvette and List 4346 1969 COPO Chevelle have a lower air bleed in the main venturi ( like a Quadrajet ) and dual power valves that worked in progression. I have both of these carbs and witnessed the AFR's on my BBC.

I restore a lot of the old carbs and have tested some of them with an AFR gauge.

If I am mistaken about the above please respond. Read the below from TUNER.

Tuner Wrote
"In 1965 I started working in a speed shop and actually sold more QJets than Holleys that summer. There were several magazine articles about what an excellent carb the new QJet was and how it was revolutionary, a huge carb and a small carb all at once, and best of all - easy to tune because the huge secondary has the easy to change metering rods.  

The hot selling carb deal was a “D-series” AFB for a 300-340 HP 327 Chevy, 3721S, with an Eelco or Offy adaptor plate to put it on the original small 4 bbl 283 or 250 HP 327 WCFB or Rochester 4-Jet intake, $29.95. Sold ‘em like hotcakes. 

The Carter AFB was the preferred racing carb because it was the carb on the factory race engines, 421 Pontiac, 409 Chevy and 413-426 Mopar, Ford was stuck with the Holleys.

I don’t expect you to believe this, but there was a time before Colt Industries acquired Holley that you almost couldn’t give away a new Holley carb because they were synonymous with Grandma’s Lincoln and Aunt Bessie’s Rambler, big trucks with governors, taxis and such.  

When the 3310 and other Chevy 780-800 CFM carbs became plentiful and cheap because so many were produced they pulled a big market share from the AFB and Rochester.  

When Colt Industries started their advertizing blitz it was essentially like a political campaign operates -- never mind your own strong points, criticize and defame your opponent -- and with that the Quadra-Toilet, Quadra-Junk, et al, was born. 

I suppose for anyone born after double pumpers came on the aftermarket in 1970 this is just nonsense and carburetors are all just perfect right out of the box. Don’t burn your headers off on the return road."

Funny you should mention this, I have a 3721 here that is like brand new with the box no less. $29.95 LOL. I have had some pretty good offers for it these days.

20171121_214006.jpg20171121_213852.jpg

You mean it was $ 29.95 when new?

[1980RS]

Holley has been awarded with many accomplishments that they don't deserve.
Annular Boosters were used in 1965 Ford carburetors. Holley had to pay Ford to use these, up until Ford stopped using carburetors.
The first 3 circuit Holley carb was on a Chrysler OEM.
Quick fuel was innovative so Holley bought them as with Barry Grant ( Idle-Eze )

The original 3310 would have been funded by GM to their specifications. Later to become an aftermarket carb 3310-1 with dogleg boosters and distribution tabs ,Secondary metering blocks , dual power valves , and the brass tube in the primary venturi for the secondary diaphragm like the originals. This carb sold so well Holley thought they should cheapen it up and ride on its popularity. The 3310-2 lost the dogleg boosters and secondary metering block. 3310-3 lost the brass tube. Aftermarket buyers don't know.
You see where this is going.
Holley spread bore , with poor metering ,was a replacement for the Quadrajet .
A lot of OEM Holley carburetors metered fuel much better. ( not just for Emissions ) List 4803 1971 LS6 Corvette and List 4346 1969 COPO Chevelle have a lower air bleed in the main venturi ( like a Quadrajet ) and dual power valves that worked in progression. I have both of these carbs and witnessed the AFR's on my BBC.

I restore a lot of the old carbs and have tested some of them with an AFR gauge.

If I am mistaken about the above please respond. Read the below from TUNER.

Tuner Wrote
"In 1965 I started working in a speed shop and actually sold more QJets than Holleys that summer. There were several magazine articles about what an excellent carb the new QJet was and how it was revolutionary, a huge carb and a small carb all at once, and best of all - easy to tune because the huge secondary has the easy to change metering rods.  

The hot selling carb deal was a “D-series” AFB for a 300-340 HP 327 Chevy, 3721S, with an Eelco or Offy adaptor plate to put it on the original small 4 bbl 283 or 250 HP 327 WCFB or Rochester 4-Jet intake, $29.95. Sold ‘em like hotcakes. 

The Carter AFB was the preferred racing carb because it was the carb on the factory race engines, 421 Pontiac, 409 Chevy and 413-426 Mopar, Ford was stuck with the Holleys.

I don’t expect you to believe this, but there was a time before Colt Industries acquired Holley that you almost couldn’t give away a new Holley carb because they were synonymous with Grandma’s Lincoln and Aunt Bessie’s Rambler, big trucks with governors, taxis and such.  

When the 3310 and other Chevy 780-800 CFM carbs became plentiful and cheap because so many were produced they pulled a big market share from the AFB and Rochester.  

When Colt Industries started their advertizing blitz it was essentially like a political campaign operates -- never mind your own strong points, criticize and defame your opponent -- and with that the Quadra-Toilet, Quadra-Junk, et al, was born. 

I suppose for anyone born after double pumpers came on the aftermarket in 1970 this is just nonsense and carburetors are all just perfect right out of the box. Don’t burn your headers off on the return road."

Funny you should mention this, I have a 3721 here that is like brand new with the box no less. $29.95 LOL. I have had some pretty good offers for it these days.

20171121_214006.jpg20171121_213852.jpg

You mean it was $ 29.95 when new?

They sure were and at the time I think a new 3310 was around $59 if I remember correctly

[rgalajda]

They sure were and at the time I think a new 3310 was around $59 if I remember correctly
[/quote]

I restore old carburetors and I am doing a 3721 AFB now. I would be very appreciative if you could post or send me some more pictures of that carb so I can get the finishes correct. It is very hard to find original correct photos. Than you for showing that.

[Geoff2]

TQs used on Fords in Australia are being recond & sold for $900+.

[PRH]

My first carb purchase was a Holley 650DP(4777) in 1980 or 81 at the Super Shops in Sacramento, Ca........ $115

[1980RS]

They sure were and at the time I think a new 3310 was around $59 if I remember correctly

I restore old carburetors and I am doing a 3721 AFB now. I would be very appreciative if you could post or send me some more pictures of that carb so I can get the finishes correct. It is very hard to find original correct photos. Than you for showing that.
[/quote]

Here you go,

20171121_213945.jpg

20171121_213928.jpg

20171121_213905.jpg

[frnkeore]

I'm not positive of the date but, it was either late '68 or early '69. I bought a MT Cross Ram manifold for my 427 FE. The manifold was used but, I bought a pair of 3310's new for it @ $35 each. It seemed that the market was flush, with 3310's at that time.

In today's money, it would be $265, the manifold was $150, today that's $1135 or $1665 total.

[swampbuggy]

1980RS, you reckon you could 10x your money

[1980RS]

1980RS, you reckon you could 10x your money

One vette guy asked how much for it, I told him $650, his jaw dropped to the floor. I said "where you going to find one in this cond.?"