42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by Grant007 »

enigma57 wrote:ImageImage Good catch, Powertrip! I am sure Grant will appreciate this info and take whatever remedial action is required.

I was unaware of this. Its been many years since I built a big block MOPAR and these new aftermarket pumps and housings were not available back then. I took your lead and did some reading on this and it appears that the 440 Source water pump is not so much the problem as is their water pump housing?
...... well as for my engine running hot, the water pump housing was the cause of it, in the back of it the water port openings were much smaller then the ones in my factory housing, really couldnt tell by looking , had to put my finger in the water ports to feel the difference......
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index ... =60599.250

That being the case, I suppose one could pull the new 440 Source water pump and pump housing...... And either install the new pump on an OEM housing...... Or drill or hand grind the undersized water ports in the new 440 Source pump housing out to OEM size and then reassemble?

Best regards,

Harry

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

'We'll Meet Again'...... Vera Lynn......

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Love you for everything anyway Harry!!! as you know :lol: :) :D :wink:
Grant :wink:
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by Grant007 »

[/quote]

Hello Harry/ Grant et al

Very Nice Collection of IDF's there, Grant. Correct airhorns and all....


Hope you post up Your results with the 440 Mopar, Grant.
(BTW- would like to hear more about Your Capri's. Do you run in some of the historic series in the UK, maybe???)

Nighty, night. fellows.[/quote]


Hi CapriManiac :wink:
Sorry for the delay :(
I have always loved Capri's after having my first 3 litre one at the age of 18yrs, it all stemmed from my age of 13years old when I got a car cleaning job in a Car showrooms for some extra pocket money, I was polishing the bonnet of a Capri, the large long power bulge of a Mk1 Capri, not really knowing what it was, in walked a big brawley chap with a London Cockney accent and asked the Governor about the car I was polishing, it was Gold and had a sticker on the windscreen with a price of £395.
He asked he could have a test drive, the buyer and the Governor looked around it while I stood to the side, they started it up and thought it sounded brilliant as they proceeded to rev the engine, anyway they were about to drive off and the Governor at the last minute asked if I wanted to jump in the back, so I did, I'll never forget how far it seemed to go in 1st gear :shock: with this beautiful exhaust note I could hear from the exhaust, :P this car flew down the road and I said to myself when I am 17 yrs old and can drive I am getting one of these!!! so I did, and that was me hooked until now when I am 50yrs old and still love them, I had a few within those times. During my times of Fascination I spotted one once with a Wide Body, we know them as "X" Packs or Series "X", I am sure you know of them too being a Caprimaniac :wink:
The Series "X" I had spotted parked on the side of the road looked great, looked correct as opposed to something that had been fitted up by "Anybody" sort of thing, anyway time went by I again spotted the same car probably 5 years later and it was sitting in someone’s house Driveway, :shock: it looked like it had been sitting a while so I knocked at the door, the chap answered saying it was his sons and it wasn’t for sale, something told me it could be but the Dad was not wanting the son to sell it, sadly the son didn’t live there either, a short time later when i found myself constantly driving passed the house in hope I saw what I believed could have been the son there outside the house, he said this was wrong and that was wrong with it etc, under the hood was a big Holley on the Essex engine, but I had fallen for the car, I offered him £800gbp for the car, I guess around $1500 dollars, he said no no way, that was all I had, so I went away sad but carried on doing overtime at work until I had £1500gbp, this I guess around $2500usd, bearing in mind this was in 1990, 24 odd years ago, I went to the house to offer him this but again he wasn’t there, I drove to that house twice a day everyday for 3 months until I found him there and sealed the deal, I still knew nothing really of the Car and any of history, he didn’t even have any paperwork with the car.
I took the car and limped home in it as it was back firing and blowing the choke flaps backwards out of the Holley, I began stripping it and then one day I was in a book shop going through some Capri books, (this was long before we all had access to the internet), I turned the page in the book and there was my car(same registration Number), it turned out this was the 1st Mk3 Wide Bodied Capri Built by Ford and it was their press/demonstration car, there were pages about it testing it for times handling etc, complete with Triple DCNF's and LSD Axle etc, one of the things he said was wrong was the axle was slipping and juddering, obviously no Capri’s had this type of Differential so it seemed obvious to me that somebody had mistaken it for a standard one and replaced the oil with a normal oil instead of Lim-Slip, anyway I then began to collect all the original articles on the car from Magazines etc, I even found the original Sales Brochure for it, I still have the car to this Day and its registration is >>>>> >>COO 260T maybe you have read about it, obviously someone had thought it may run better with a Holley and so took the Weber’s off and replaced it with a Holley, this is where I began tracing a set of Weber’s and therefore began my Fascination for them, hence so many of them :wink:
So hoping I haven’t driven you to sleep and you are still reading this :lol: and back to your question, no I don’t race them I just love restoration of things and although the body/shell of the car was and still is in beautiful condition and did not require restoration it was re-painted after it left the Ford Press Fleet Department in ford RS colours and was then used by a Racing School as a Pace Car, the owner at this time of its life was a Chap called "Mike Wilds" who then went on to become a formula 1 racing car driver, I have made contact with him in the past and he sent me letter saying it was one of his favourite cars, I have added his letter below :wink:
I didnt want to take away any of its history, and although I wanted to re-paint it back to the Stratos Silver I couldnt take away its History, the pics below are during those Pace Car times :)
I also have another 3 litre Capri with a Manual Gearbox and Triple Weber’s with full race heads and Cam, it only delivers around 220bhp but isn’t a lot in today’s standards and it is hard work on the road but again a very lovely example that I have had for the past 15years, also pictured below Caprimaniac.

Here is the 3 litre capri I own and have for the past 15yrs (not COO260T)
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Here below are some Press shots of COO260T >>>
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This is a Press shot beside a Capri at the Race Track, and was driven by "Gordon Spice" it was chosen as Gordon spice the same "Extravagent" Triple Weber Set up", that was the quote in the Book underneath the Picture Caprimaniac :wink:
Image

This is the original sales brochure, it wouldhave been on a stand beside the car in the showroom but you will notice the number plate has been blanked out, but note it is the same shot as above and on the book cover below :P
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Here below are more press shots taken by fFord in 1979 on its 1st release and to try to Promoyte the Series "X" extra's, bearing in mind that if you bought a production model 3 litre "S" capri in 1979 it would have cost you around £5400gbp, but if you ordered a Series "X" it would have been £9600 nearly twice the price :( alot of the articles in all the magazines really asked was it worth the extra :?: :shock:
This picture you will notice the Chap driving is From the Ford Press fleet for the Photo shoot >>
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This below isnt a press shot, but it was a picture I got from someone along the way who taken a shot of it outside a company, note the Old Mk1 Cortina and how the Series "X" made the Cortina looked so dated at this time. :shock:
Image
This shot below is the letter I recieved from the racing Car Driver I spoke of Mr Mike Wilds who owned the car and used it as a Pace Car and hence the Ford Racing R.S colours,
Image
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I do have more Pic's of press shots Caprimaniac but I thought I may have posted enough :shock:
So there we have it chaps, I am more of a resto/collector Freak than a racer sport :wink:

Harry >> If you are reading this thank you SO much as always for your last email and I will answer to thank you again for your help, all has been digested and Logged onto a Collated list for my project, thank you also for the "Fuel Log" Link, I will make mine out of Shiny (difficult to work with but will stay shiney for ever :lol: ) Stainless Steel :wink:
Thank you again for reading all :)
Grant :wink: :) :P
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by enigma57 »

:D Very nice Capris you have there, Grant! I can see why you and Caprimaniac are so taken with them. Fun cars indeed.

Best regards,

Harry
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by Caprimaniac »

This is a bit late, but anyhow:

Thank you for all Capri x-pack information, Grant. Interesting information there. And lots of Nice cars... I may have said so in an earlier post, but I'll tell this once more anyways: Rumours said there was ONE RS- dealer in Norway. And there is ONE x-pack Capri as far as I know, delivered from this Company in the late 70's. I find it strange not more Capri's were delivered. However- I have NOT looked into the amount of Escorts sold With the x-pack kits. Or the Cortinas. And even the Granada was available in x-pack disguise(?). I would Guess Escort x-packs outnumbered all other Ford's regarding the x-line. Because it was a cheaper car.

What about the Mopar With DCNF's- any News?
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by enigma57 »

Hi, Caprimaniac!

:D Saw your post here and thought I'd give you an update. Grant has kept in touch via E-mail. He has finished mods to the tri-power intake (beautiful work, BTW) and has located the chokes, rebuild kits and baseline jetting required to calibrate the 42 DCNF carbs to run on plenum style intake on his 440 MOPAR engine. I am not sure whether he has completed rebuilding the carbs as yet.

In the meanwhile, Grant has begun mods to his car (to replace the Torqueflite trans and live axle with a 5-speed manual gearbox and Jaguar IRS) and is soon to be a Grandpa, so is taking care of some things with regard to that as well. When he has the opportunity, I am sure Grant will visit the forum here and give you a much more detailed update on his project than can I.

Best regards,

Harry
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by af2 »

enigma57 wrote:Hi, Caprimaniac!

:D Saw your post here and thought I'd give you an update. Grant has kept in touch via E-mail. He has finished mods to the tri-power intake (beautiful work, BTW) and has located the chokes, rebuild kits and baseline jetting required to calibrate the 42 DCNF carbs to run on plenum style intake on his 440 MOPAR engine. I am not sure whether he has completed rebuilding the carbs as yet.

In the meanwhile, Grant has begun mods to his car (to replace the Torqueflite trans and live axle with a 5-speed manual gearbox and Jaguar IRS) and is soon to be a Grandpa, so is taking care of some things with regard to that as well. When he has the opportunity, I am sure Grant will visit the forum here and give you a much more detailed update on his project than can I.

Best regards,

Harry
Harry glad to see you posting again!!! My E-mail has changed and I will PM you tomorrow. Adam
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by enigma57 »

:hello2: Just stop by now and again, Adam. Look forward to hearing from you. My E-mail is still the same.

Best regards,

Harry
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by JACB »

enigma57 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:33 am Grant has kept in touch via E-mail. He has finished mods to the tri-power intake (beautiful work, BTW)
Hi Harry

Could you be more specific about the final mods that were suggested/carried out on the Offenhauser "Six Pack" manifold?

Perhaps you or Grant could post a picture?

Regards

James
Last edited by JACB on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by JACB »

Hi Harry

Can you tell us if all of the Low Rise Offenhauser 360 degree manifolds of the time had this plenum divide?

My interest is the Offenhauser Dual Quad setup, also for a 440 in a Jensen Interceptor. I plan to have Sequential fuel Injection rails fitted. What I need is a Low Rise Manifold that will fit under the hood (Maximum of 5 1/2"). I have been talking with August Cederstrand of Edelbrock about using their Pro-Flow 4 HEMI 426 Dual Quad kit (#35670 ) on a modified Offenhauser Dual Quad manifold. The Edelbrock CH28 is Dual Plane and too tall.

Here are some pictures of the Offenhauser 360 manifold range.

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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by enigma57 »

Hi, JACB!

Well, its been a while as you can see from the dates of posts to this thread, but I will see if I can answer your queries from memory. I have no photos of Grant's finished tri-power manifold...... Will send him an E-mail with this thread address in case he may want to comment further and/or attach photos. I am in Texas and Grant is in the UK. He does travel to the continent from time to time, so it may take a while for him to receive my E-mail and respond.

Offenhauser '360 degree' manifolds are a single plane design having a center divider running front to rear which divides the plenum in 2 halves (left side feeds 4 cylinders on that bank and right side feeds the other 4 cylinders on opposite bank).

The center divider has some small openings placed near center of carburettor mounting flange(s) down low near bottom of plenum to balance vacuum and allow a minimal amount of 'cross talk' and mixture sharing between left and right banks. This holds true of all Offy's '360 degree' intakes whether high rise or low rise and regardless of whether the were designed for 1, 2 or 3 carburettors. The caveat being these openings are usually centered on the center (primary) carb on tri-power intake and the primary end of 4bbl intales, be they single or dual quad.

Also...... On engines having (4) sets of paired intake runners such as the Chevy V-8...... There is a divider cast between the adjoining (4) paired runners, as well. These extend from the intake manifold/head interface where intake bolts to head and extends towards plenum, stopping just short of plenum walls. The slightly indented area you see on each of the paired runners when looking down on intake coincide with these port wall dividers.

MOPAR followed the same basic design layout on the 273 V-8s installed in the first Barracudas in the mid-'60s. One advantage of this design is that it allows a very low carburettor mounting height in applications having very low hood clearance. And it does so without the tight turns and changes of direction (of air/fuel mixture) required of a similar height dual plane intake. In such instances, the Offy '360 degree' intake has a flow advantage (in terms of volume) over the typical 180 degree dual plane design of same carb pad mounting height. This is enhanced by the excellent quality of Offy castings which have smooth port and plenum walls along with consistent port cross section. Much nicer quality casting from that standpoint than the majority of 'new' aftermarket manifold castings now of days.

That's the good news. The not so good news has to do with adjoining, paired cylinders 5 and 7 firing one after the other. Which means you may need to resort to staggered jetting in order to maintain as even fuel distribution (cylinder to cylinder) as possible.

To the best of my recollection, Grant has (2) tri-power intakes, 2 Jensen Interceptors and both a 383 low block and a couple of 440 raised block MOPAR engines there. One of the tri-power intakes was modified to accept (3) modified Holley 2bbl carbs by another tuner.

The mods to the Offy tri-power intake that will now accept Weber DCNF carbs are as follows......

1. The Weber DCNF carbs are very compact and can be mounted closer together than American built carburettors. As close as 4-3/4" on center if mounting them inline. This allowed Grant to move the end carb mounting pads sufficiently (closer together) and in that way, center the end carbs over the (4) sets of paired sets of intake runners (1 & 3 and 2 & 4 up front and 5 & 7 and 6 & 8 at the rear) for better fuel distribution.

2. Whilst doing this, he drilled and tapped all three mounting flanges to accept the Weber DCNF bolt pattern and bored new throttle bore holes of the size and spacing needed, as well.

3. The Offy '360 degree' tri-power intake as noted above, has a small opening in the center divider down low near the plenum floor to act as a balance mechanism between the divided left and right banks on either side of the center divider. I suggested to Grant that he provide similar openings beneath the relocated end carb mounting pads, as well and I believe he did so. These need not be overly large (a single 3/8" dia. hole is large enough). The reason I suggested placing a balance opening beneath all 3 carbs is the Offy tri-power intake (as are most) is intended for a single center carb being the primary and both end carbs being secondary carbs which begin opening when the center carb throttle blades are around 5/8" open and have a quicker opening rate so that all (3) carbs reach WOT at the same time.

Because of the increased flow capacity of the Weber 42 DCNF carbs, I wanted Grant to have the flexibility to run......

1. Only the end carbs on straight (non-progressive) throttle linkage and close off the center carb mounting flange with a blanking plate.

2. Do as noted above (end carbs being primaries), only run (3) carbs and use progressive linkage to bring center carb in as a secondary.

3. Run all (3) carbs on straight (non-progressive) throttle linkage. This being unnecessary from the standpoint of flow volume and balanced flow to each cylinder, but an option to explore, should he wish to do so. This work was done in the UK.

Later, I sent Grant an unmachined casting I had here. It was one of the experimental proof of concept IR castings Jim Inglese had cast for Chevy small block to mount (4) Weber DCNF carbs inline as per Maserati and Aston Martin. Bore spacing measured center to center being so close (4.40") on a small block Chevy and a minimum of 4.75" on center needed to mount DCNF carbs inline front to rear...... Jim opted to keep runners same length and utilize an offset disrtributor mount with this intake. At the time, I was building a 427 small block stroker for my Chevy and on IR intake, the DCNF carbs simply were not large enough. The other thing was that an offset distributor mount would not clear the firewall in my '57 Chevy. To install one would require butchering the firewall and totally screwing up the windshield wiper cables under the dash.

So I sent the casting to Grant along with some drawings he could use as patterns to make head plates that would allow this manifold to be finished so as to mount 4 DCNF carbs on his 383 MOPAR engine. As an aside, I called Jim Inglese regarding the DCNF intake. He was surprised any had survived, as he only had 'about a dozen' cast and of those, only a handful were finish machined. Seems he had only recently had these castings done when he sold the company which bears his name. And near as I can figure, someone found those castings stashed away and forgotten in the back of a warehouse and they began to surface around 10 - 15 years ago. Nick Smithberg has one and I have seen 2 others for sale over the years. One bare intake that had been show polished and one that had been machined and fitted with EFI throttle bodies.

Anyway...... I hope this info makes sense and I'll send Grant the link to this thread in case he wishes to comment here.

Best regards,

Harry

P.S. >>> If you get wild and crazy and decide to run Weber DCNF carbs on plenum style intake, I have continued to experiment along those lines and can give you a baseline jetting that should get you close enough to get you going whilst you sort out jetting on your particular engine. Bear in mind though that the DCNF carbs were designed for IR (individual runner) intakes of engines having 500cc - 600cc displacement per cylinder. You can reconfigure them for use on a plenum style intake and use one or more of them with larger displacement engines, but this entails fitting them with smaller chokes (main venturii), larger jets, smaller air correctors and different emulsion tubes.

This, compounded by the fact that since the time these carbs were first designed and fitted to various engines...... What passes for pump gas now of days has been reformulated as a lighter and more volatile oxygenated fuel and if diluted with ethanol as well, you will need to drop float level 1 to 2 mm, increase jet size a bit and likely go to a larger diameter emulsion tube having holes drilled a bit differently than the 'old' settings you see listed in 40 - 50 year old jetting charts. Lots of trial and error on road or track with O2 meter will get you where you need to be.

There were several sizes and configurations of the DCN series carbs and amongst those are the 36 DCNVH. This is the only one of this series I have found that incorporates a power valve, as it was designed for use as a single carb on plenum style intake. They were used on Talbots and several other cars, the most noteworthy being the carburetted '84 - '85 Maserati BiTurbo engines. Very hard to find in good condition for a reasonable price here Stateside, but well worth it in terms of drivability and mileage due to the inclusion of a power valve.
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by JACB »

Harry Hi

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a considered reply.

The Inglese Manifold looks like a real find … At first look I thought it was going to fit the 440. As a matter if interest they do make an IR manifold for the 440 .. but you probably know this. https://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-DODGE ... 2347713607

My interest is (as I previously mentioned) in the Dual Quad Offenhauser 360 Manifold that would be modified to accept Sequential fuel Injection. Edelbrock make a Pro-Flow 4 HEMI 426 Dual Quad kit (#35670 ) and I would buy that and use the modified Offenhauser Dual Quad manifold in order to adapt the 426 kit to the 440. The Edelbrock CH28 is Dual Plane (I would prefer single plane for dry manifold Efi use) and too tall for my application.

Yes I am somewhat concerned that the two Edelbrock throttle bodies may be too much (CFM) for my almost standard 1975 motor and may make slow speed driving difficult (all or nothing). The Edelbrock throttle bodies are progressive, so it is possible that all will be well. I do plan to considerably upgrade the engine in the future.

Do you think that the 360 design of this manifold with its divided halves (so to speak) will help or hinder my application? …. I am thinking help since it will now be a dry manifold and the plenum volume will effectively be reduced, pickup should be good, maybe too good!

Re the issue of the adjoining, paired cylinders 5 and 7. Perhaps at this stage I should point out that whilst I am British, the car and I reside in New Zealand. I have located a new Dual Quad Offenhauser manifold in the USA but have yet to have one in my hands to fully inspect. It all about sensible research, before spending the money at this precise time. I am heavily dependant on knowledgeable people such as yourself.

Do you think that the Dual Quad Offenhauser manifold would make a good EFI manifold and would you make any changes to it other than adding the fuel rails?
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by enigma57 »

Hi, JACB!

Yes, sorry for my overly detailed response priour. I must preface my comments here in that I consider myself to be primarily a carburettor guy and as such, not an EFI guy though I have helped design a few one off EFI setups.
Do you think that the Dual Quad Offenhauser manifold would make a good EFI manifold and would you make any changes to it other than adding the fuel rails?
All in all, I believe the 360 degree Offenhauser intake manifold will make an excellent basis for sequential EFI conversion. The only caveat will be fitment of the supplied distributor. Assuming it will interchange (426 hemi to 440 wedge engine), you will need to see how it fits with the Offy intake in place. The photo Edelbrock has for the conversion kit you mention shows what appears to be a distributor having a large diameter cap such as an HEI would have. That being the case, check distributor fitment closely (trial fit them) when you have your Edelbrock kit and Offy intake in hand. Should there be a slight interference, you can always clearance intake and weld in a small piece of aluminum to close it off again.

Regarding the Offenhauser intake and how its design lends itself to fitment of the Edelbrock kit...... With the 'low rise' version of Offy intake, you will have the advantage of a lower profile intake which with careful choice of air cleaner, should fit beneath your bonnet. You will have the advantage of excellent flow, as well. The only disadvantage (fuel distribution if wet flow with carburettor or TBI) due to adjoining cylinders 5 and 7 firing one after the other...... Should be negated by your conversion to dry flow and sequential EFI.

Just position your new injector bungs above each port close to interface with headports and adjust angle to aim injector at back of intake valve and you should be good to go.

You will need to make up new fuel rails which line up with the intake port layout of your 440 wedge engine, though. Either that, or you might contact Edelbrock directly and see if they will substitute (or make available separately) the fuel rails they use with their #35910 kit for 440 Dodge. If they will make the substitution, trial fit each fuel rail with injectors in place when tack welding your new injector bungs in place. Then remove fuel rails and injectors and finish welding your injector bungs......

Image

https://www.edelbrock.com/pro-flo-4-efi ... 35910.html

I noted in Edelbrock's description of their #35670 kit that their engine management computer is 'self-learning' so it should work well with your engine once you have everything fit up and a good base tune......

Image

https://www.edelbrock.com/edelbrock-pro ... 35670.html

Best regards,

Harry
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by enigma57 »

P.S. >>>> Yes, I have seen the IR intakes for fitting Weber IDF carburettors to the 440 MOPAR engines. These are excellent carbs and should run well on a road car when jetted and tuned properly.

That said...... Grant and I and a few friends comprise a small contingent of Weber DCNF aficionados who simply like that style carburettor for many reasons. There being no 'store bought' intake manifolds to mount them on the MOPAR engine in his Jensen Interceptor, I donated the aforementioned unmachined prototype intake casting Jim Inglese had cast for small block Chevy......

Image

...... And with some work and the addition of custom made head plates, this intake can be fitted to his engine along with a set of matching 42 DCNF carbs (4 in a row) as with the Aston Martin and Maserati engines (mid '70s to early '80s)......

Aston Martin intake (1974 Series III)......

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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by Grant007 »

Hello James :P
Have you not picked the brains of Bruce Bridges?... As I am sure you may know he is the EFI Guru and has an Interceptor, he frequents the Jensen Owners Club Forum where I have seen previous posts from your goodself before, I am sure he will be the perfect person to answer all your questions regarding EFI on a Mopar 440 as he actually sells all the kits and as said has a 440 himself... Give him a try James and post back your findings :wink:
I noticed just now that you are asking him about the fuel tank low level warning light on the JOC forum, that is the Bruce Bridges I am referring to James :wink:
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Re: 42 DCNF's on a Mopar 440

Post by Geoff2 »

Enigma/Harry.

Very interesting Weber info you have posted. What is the reason for going with larger diam E tubes [ as opposed to smaller diam tubes ]? Thanks.
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