?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

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travis
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?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by travis »

I'm not even sure where to begin here. I've been doing so much research the last few days that my head hurts...

Here's what I've got...1983 Ford F-150 extended cab, 351w, C6, 3.55's...weighing in at a hair over 4900 pounds. It's got a 40K mile stock rebuilt 351w out of an '89 Bronco, measured 8.5-1 compression, stock EFI cam (206/221@.050, .444/.453 lift, 115 lsa, 117 ica), stock rebuilt E7 heads, a Weiand Stealth intake (was purchased to match future plans I had for the truck), a 80457 600 vac sec Holley, stock '83 exhaust manifolds, 1 3/4" down pipes into a "Y", 2 1/2" single exhaust, no cat, Flo-Pro race muffler, and a Mallory HEI. I advanced the cam 4* trying to perk up the low end...all it did was make it run a little rougher. Other than a spike in power between 3500 and 4500 rpms, this thing is actually weaker and gets less fuel economy than the thoroughly worn out turd that was in there before...and it had a smaller cam (107.5 lsa though), less compression (7.9-1 measured), and a TON of blow by. The old engine averaged 13.3mpg highway with a best of 14.5mpg one time with a strong tailwind...the fresh engine averages 10.4mpg even after extensive tuning.

I'll have 1 1/2" long tube headers and dual exhaust on it within the next month or so.

Selecting a cam for this thing has been quite confusing. I need to add some economy to this thing, along with a much stronger 2000-4000 rpm torque curve. I initially expected much better performance out of this engine, although I knew the super wide lsa and huge duration split wasn't going to help low end and midrange torque, I didn't expect it to be this bad especially with the corked up exhaust. Doing some research, I found the .006" numbers for the EFI cam...284/308!!! No wonder this thing doesn't want to idle much under 1000 rpms and doesnt pick up until 3500 rpms! This is actually the very same profile ford used on the early 70's 351 Clevelands. That has got to be the slowest take up ramps in history. How in the world was Ford able to get this turd to pass smog regulations with 63* of overlap??

So I was looking at getting a cam ground for the 351w that I have had excellent results with in the past on low compression, smogger headed 350 chevies, the comp cams 260AH-8. But then searching the net, most everybody claims wider lsa=better vacuum=better mileage. My experience has been that smaller cams on tighter lsa's=sharper throttle response and much stronger torque through the whole powerband (talking 0-5000 rpms here), so my thinking is stronger torque=less throttle input to maintain speed or pull hills or whatever which should equal better mpg's. Thoughts? Keep in mind the relatively high cruise rpms (3200-3400 rpms), heavy weight, and large frontal area.

More searching on the whole LSA thing and cam timing events and what not ended up with me on some magazine article written by David Vizard (whom I highly respect) concerning the optimum LSA versus valve sizing. I'm going to do some light porting on my E7's but wont be spending $$$'s for larger valves and the corresponding machine work required. Not worth the money in my opinion, especially for what I use this truck for. According to Mr. Vizards charts, I need a 104 LSA :shock: So using the 260AH-8's 48* of overlap, his article says I need a 256* cam on a 104 LSA. Sounds like headbanging to me...once when you punch it and it smacks your head against the back window, and again when it falls on its face at 3500 rpms and your head hits the steering wheel :mrgreen: Thoughts? It just doesn't seem realistic to me...especially with the weak ford exhaust port.
roadrunner
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by roadrunner »

Throw a turbo onto it.
Life's too short to not run a supercharger!
barnym17
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by barnym17 »

Fix the exhaust first, that thing is being choked to death with stock manifolds and a 1.75 down pipe.You have what pretty much amounts to exhaust brake on it.
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by wyrmrider »

117 ica- that's retarded
good FORD cam discussion here
do not even think of a Comp or Crane or Lunati for a FORD
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=41260
do the exhaust first
are those heads better or worse that GT40 or Expedition?
can you find a reference on how they flow?
the intake- exhaust duration difference will care
travis
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by travis »

The E7 heads are worse than the GT40's and "P" heads...I don't have the numbers in front of me but from various web sources, the intake peaks at around 160 cfm somewhere between .400 and .450 lift, and gain only a handful of cfm after that. The exhausts flow a whopping 112cfm at .400", 115@.500", and only pick up a few more cfm after that.

A good read here... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29828&hilit=exhaust+manifolds . This pretty much goes along with my line of thinking...even with headers and better exhaust this thing is still exhaling through a straw. Small cam, tight lsa...build for torque because its never going to make much HP! It also backs up what I am seeing in the engine in my truck now.

Now I wonder...with none flowing heads, would there be any real difference between shorty heads and long tubes? What about between my Stealth and say a performer 2181? Thoughts on using the Isky 262 supercam?

FWIW, I know GT40's or some P's would be a solid improvement, but this is a low buck deal...this is my hunting/fishing/hauling stuff/backup vehicle now. I've searched craigslist and such for better heads and stuff, but around here everybody wants to retire off of their junk I guess.
travis
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by travis »

Wow...nix the thought of using the 262 supercam...

http://iskycams.com/timingchart.php?pro ... ber=388262

262*@.020" lift...what is that, like 280@.006"?? Same situation I am in now...way too much seat duration for a 8.5-1 engine with weak heads IMO.

I'll probably end up with a comp high energy 260...a little wider lsa than what I was looking for but I know it works great in chevy 350 smog motors, even with iron manifolds.
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by roadrunner »

Surely some more compression would help you pick up some power, 8.5 to 1 seems a bit low to me, what's your cranking compression?
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by wyrmrider »

Isky had no .875 hyd Ford cams last time I looked, nor did Crane
Bullet may in addition to Ultradyne and Howards
with low compression you need to pay attention to intake close point and intensity
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by goldmember63 »

Bullet cams ask for Tim. 662-893-5670
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

you did not advance the cam far enough.

degree it and move to a 106-107 in c/l based on the measured .050" numbers.
intake closes 30° ABDC.

8.5:1 cr.... needs a lil roots blower.

correct the distributor curve.

that cam needs a lot more compression.

1.75" ex pipes............
travis
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by travis »

I would agree that it needs more compression with this cam. However...it actually cranks a lot more compression than what I thought it would. I just did this tonight...with the engine fully warmed up, power unhooked from the distributor, throttle open, it cranks 160-165 psi in the front cylinder on each bank. I expected 135-140 at best. While 160-165 psi isn't earth shattering, I don't feel its a bad place to be considering the bad quench (pistons are .045" in the hole), stock iron heads, and the desire to run 87 octane fuel.
I did notice that the plugs look awfully white. I know reading a plug is harder with unleaded fuel, but these things looks almost like new even with approx 800 miles on them. I don't remember the exact terminology, but the line on the plugs ground strap is half way between the base and the 90* turn. What is this telling me...that its too lean, a little too much advance, or ??? There is also no noticeable ring on the porcelain itself...its bone white all the way to the base.
I advanced the cam as far as as I could with the timing set I had, which was 4*. I'd agree that it needs more...another 4* would put it on a 109 ICA, but at this point, isn't that putting the exhaust valve events way out of whack? I haven't had a chance to sit down and do the math yet.
I've got a relatively slow curve in the distributor right now due to it pinging issue it had when I first threw the engine in there, which turned out to be a hidden vacuum leak. I never got around to quickening up the curve...all this happened about the time we was moving from Oklahoma to Texas. Initial timing is 14* right now, 36* total IIRC.
At an 800 rpm idle, this thing is a little rougher than I think it should be (at least until I found out that the seat to seat timing was so long). It actually has a slight lope to it.
All the valves are moving...so no flat lobes.
At this point I'm going to go over the tune again tomorrow, maybe try some lighter springs in the distributor, and see what happens. I'm also thinking at this point just adding a set of headers and duals, and see where that gets me.
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

ya that does effect the exhaust events but getting the intake closing point right is the priority.

degree first, then move it (more) to 30-32 ° abdc in closing @.050. measured.

...then ex events are not too bad, especially with headers added.

yup, carb probabily needs a lot of work too.
those avenger carbs seem to never be right ootb.
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by justahoby »

travis wrote:. I advanced the cam 4* trying to perk up the low end...all it did was make it run a little rougher.
maybe im shooting in the dark, but we all get brain farts. Maybe you didn't have enough coffee that day and you accidentally retard the cam 4 degrees?
and left the timing so it was also 4 degrees retarded along with the cam?
i have done backward stuff due to my brain needing rest. just makes sense why it would only improve in a narrower higher rpm band and shit sputters down low..
As I'm approaching 40,I still think I'm 20. What the hell is wrong with me?
travis
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by travis »

Ok...this thing is driving me nuckin' futs :?

First, a little back story on this truck. Many years ago, when the "original" engine was in this thing (engine that was in it when I bought it...a Jasper reman stock replacement engine with 7.9-1 compression measured and a 195/195@.050 cam, .416/.416 lift, 107.5 lsa, 103 ica with about 60K miles on the engine), I added a performer 2181, this 80457 holley 600vs carb, the mallory HEI, and replaced the giant truck muffler with a Flo-Pro race muffler that I had laying around. I perked the engine up quite noticeably at all rpms, and went from an average of 10.5mpg to an average of 13.3mpg. The engine was in pretty sad shape...it had a lot of blow by even then which I suspect was the result of the crazy lean (and worn out) oddball 325cfm holley 2 bbl replacement carb that was on it. I put another 70K miles on it over the next several years, with lots of highway miles running 3200-3400 rpms. By the time the engine had about 140K miles on it, it was very sick and had very little power...yet still started instantly and still got over 12mpg. I bought this 40K mile '89 351w engine out of a very nice, but brutally wrecked Bronco.
Initially when I threw the newer engine in my truck, I swapped over the performer intake, 600 holley, HEI, crap exhaust, etc. I was in a hurry doing the swap because we was about to move out of state. It wouldn't hardly run at all and idled around 2K rpms. Long story short, the performer intake was warped and wouldn't seal. I installed the Stealth intake, knowing it was totally wrong for my setup at the time, but it was more inline with the future plans I had for the truck. After a LOT of tuning, I was able to get a pretty stable idle at 800 rpms with 14* intial timing, and the idle speed screw backed completely out. It pulled a shaky 14-16" of vacuum at idle, but would idle in gear around 700 rpms without dying. Fuel economy is 10.4mpg highway at this point. Power is weak until it spikes around 3500 rpms. Reading the plugs shows too much timing, and lean. Idle mix screws were only about 3/4 turn out from bottomed out. This was the only setup I could get this thing to idle at a normal speed and not die in gear, but I know its still not right. I can't find factory specs for the idle vac this thing should be pulling, but 14-16" is not right. An XE268 in a 9.4-1 355 sbc with vortec heads pulls 14.5".

So today...I start working on getting the idle vac up to where I think it should be. The best is was able to get this morning was by cranking the timing up to 22* initial, idle mix screws about 1 3/4 turns out, replacing a number of suspect vacuum hoses, and throwing a set of MSD plug wires on it after finding 1 boot on my other set burned through and cracked (these was 15 year old Accel 8mm Super Stocks). It pulled 19" at 800 rpms...that should be in the ballpark. The idle speed screw still isn't touching the primary throttle blades (should it be, at least a little??).

Problem is now that the truck dies in gear, and rattles like mad at 1/2 throttle (not surprising at 22* initial). I disconnected the vac advance can and it pings less, but still pings at 1/2 throttle. Throttle response is quite a bit better though. The vac can is a 20* unit...I can't believe I never checked that before. I'll look for a 10-12* can later.

The thing acts like it has a vacuum leak, but I cannot find one. I've capped EVERYTHING off, sprayed carb cleaner around the intake and carb gaskets, vac ports, etc. The engine also is a lot harder to start...the starter struggles against that much initial timing.

At this point I am lost. I'm about to go out and double check the cam timing, run a compression test on all cylinders, and work on the initial timing again. Factory tune specs for a mid 80's 351w HO (which uses the same cam, an iron 4bbl intake, a smog tuned 600 holley carb, and a very similar exhaust setup) calls for 10* initial, and a 650 rpm idle in gear. I should be able to get close to that, but so far have not been able to.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
travis
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Re: ?'s about cams, mileage, etc...

Post by travis »

Ok...I think I nailed it this time. 12* initial, fine tuned the idle mix screws again, confirmed that the cam is indeed advanced (though just slightly). Starts great, no pinging, smooth idle. This thing is EXTREMELY sensitive to idle mix and timing settings...I've never seen one this touchy.

I'll run some more mileage tests over the next couple of weeks before installing the headers and new exhaust.
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