If this project has budget concerns and steel pipe will be used, flanges and mandrel bends are priced good on Ebay. Just watch gauge thickness and shipping charges closely.
I recommend working on a steel set for a first time project.
Get more than you need. Can't beat the price of straight pipe at farm/fleet type stores.
If possible, cut the lower half off and use the flange portion of an existing header and add to it, at least for a practice/trial set. Then you can see what works or doesn't.
Example; 3rd gen F-body has 1-5/8" or 1-3/4" shorty's that you can cut the collector, add 4-90*'s out sideways, then turn 2-90*'s back rearwards in a tri-y configuration (180* firing). It fits the body on both sides, resembling a Corvette sidepipe, except beneath the car. Then it can be merged to a big single in the factory location. The sizes and lengths work out to fit the range of a 400-500hp+ small block easily, and with much more torque.
If an existing set would work, except only one or two tubes need moved, you'll be waaay ahead in time there, too.
All good info so far...
Pm OK.
First time header build
Moderator: Team
Re: First time header build
What I do is start with the front tube and make it a bit longer than my target length because most of the time it's hard to get all the length you want for the rear cylinders.
That way, if I'm shooting for lets say 32" I might end up with the front tubes at about 34" and the rearmost tube at 30"
I think that's better than getting the proper length on the front tube and ending up with the rear tube being a lot too short.
I can never get all the lengths just right. I just do the best I can.
If you're working off the floor rather than a hoist I find it really helps if you can use some extra tall jack stands.
I used to get a box of random bends but lately I've been just getting "J" bends in a few different radiuses.
It seems like with the random bends I can never find exactly what I'm looking for and even if I do, I can't find another bend exactly the same for the next tube so for me the "J" bends work well.
I've only made a few sets of headers for my own stuff so don't put too much weight on my opinions but even though it can be challenging, once you get the hang of it, it's almost fun.
That way, if I'm shooting for lets say 32" I might end up with the front tubes at about 34" and the rearmost tube at 30"
I think that's better than getting the proper length on the front tube and ending up with the rear tube being a lot too short.
I can never get all the lengths just right. I just do the best I can.
If you're working off the floor rather than a hoist I find it really helps if you can use some extra tall jack stands.
I used to get a box of random bends but lately I've been just getting "J" bends in a few different radiuses.
It seems like with the random bends I can never find exactly what I'm looking for and even if I do, I can't find another bend exactly the same for the next tube so for me the "J" bends work well.
I've only made a few sets of headers for my own stuff so don't put too much weight on my opinions but even though it can be challenging, once you get the hang of it, it's almost fun.
Re: First time header build
I hate building headers
but used to use springy flex tubing to mock up
It always tried to straighten itself out so you could get max radius bends and play around to get as equal a length as possible
then tig in place and bend and weld up the the tubing, if you do not have access to a mandrel bender you can use the wheelbarrow of bends approach or I've seen packing the tubing with sand, seal and bend with some heat
BTW nice work on the 409 headers
And remember Mickey Thompson's approach of having different length tube in the collector .
His theory was to make the bends as gentle (spelling checker tried gentile) as possible and still try and make equal length
you could also think of trI y or 4-2-1
but used to use springy flex tubing to mock up
It always tried to straighten itself out so you could get max radius bends and play around to get as equal a length as possible
then tig in place and bend and weld up the the tubing, if you do not have access to a mandrel bender you can use the wheelbarrow of bends approach or I've seen packing the tubing with sand, seal and bend with some heat
BTW nice work on the 409 headers
And remember Mickey Thompson's approach of having different length tube in the collector .
His theory was to make the bends as gentle (spelling checker tried gentile) as possible and still try and make equal length
you could also think of trI y or 4-2-1
Re: First time header build
I did that with the flat collector headers I wrote of on P.1; got them all within 20 cc displacement, ~3/8". Now it's widely held that +/- 5" is plenty good enough..wyrmrider wrote:...And remember Mickey Thompson's approach of having different length tube in the collector .
His theory was to make the bends as gentle (spelling checker tried gentile) as possible and still try and make equal length
you could also think of trI y or 4-2-1
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.
Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.
Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.
Re: First time header build
Here is how I do flanges. The flanges are .070" larger than the port so when the .063" tube is inserted it fits very nicely. I weld the inside to the flange and then grind and I finish the outside with a silicon bronze filler. The SiB is supposedly a little more flexible so it supports the tube and they don't crack there.lada ok wrote:If at all possible you want the flanges to be counter bored 3 mm to take the pipe o/d or bored right through, then the pipe slips into the flange and is welded at the back side..... no mess and looks rea factory
There are header pipe kits that have allow you to run up a dummy set so you can check out what's what
Or go to your local plumbing merchant and you should be able to buy PVC plastic pipe and elbows to play around with
Wouldn't worry if each pipe isn't exactly the same length
Think about just tack welding the thing up, then take it to someone that can TIG weld ... you can use an old head as a jig one end & known distances at the other
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: First time header build
Here is the mock-up kit I use. It's an ICE Engine works kit. It saves a LOT of time but you would be surprised at the amount of time you can spend playing with the "legos" 
The nicest thing I find about using the mock-up kit is that if you spend enough time with it you can really eliminate a lot of welding and, of course, it's much easier to get the lengths right.
The nicest thing I find about using the mock-up kit is that if you spend enough time with it you can really eliminate a lot of welding and, of course, it's much easier to get the lengths right.You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: First time header build
The end result
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Re: First time header build
Not trying to hijack, just showing how I do it. I'm sure that you could post some of your work, which I've seen and is MUCH nicer than anything I've done and we could learn from that as well.proheader wrote:was that a thread hijack I noticed??....lol..... good looking work....
How do you attach your tubes at the flange?
How do you mock-up for most efficient use of time?
Any good welding tips?
All of this applies to "first time header build"
Re: First time header build
Believe it or not, I was one of the first guys to try the ice pieces and they are awesome. As time went on I noticed I could spend a small fortune in all those pieces because I do so much different stuff. I have become a custom to building so much I somewhat see it before i build it. I have done jobs and ordered tubing from SPD down to the last bend and have nothing but a small piece like 8" left. Talk about trimming material...lol I have stacks of left over stuff that I can dip in to save cost sometimes.....
I have a CNC machine for flanges now and we make our own. With having that in house it save time from sending rubbings to other guys and waiting in line....
Other than that, you hit the nail on the head. I use a mild steel flange on everything we do including stainless as I will not build mild steel headers anymore. I use silicant bronze or coathanger as the guys here call it on the outside of my flanges. I either fuse the inside or drop a little rod with purge gas going.
With all this new dirt header craze around here right now i am trying to figure out a faster way to build since there is not a merge collector to make. We calculated that it takes 14 hours from start to finish to build a set of headers. No matter how you slice it..... For me right now its about balance. Would much rather be a good DAD that a great header builder..... over the years I have learned that no matter how good you are you will not please racers. But I sure can enjoy watching my sons grow up and staying home to watch Charlie Brown Thanksgiving last week..... no header is worth that to me anymore....
mini sprint header right now for Tulsa shootout coming....
I have a CNC machine for flanges now and we make our own. With having that in house it save time from sending rubbings to other guys and waiting in line....
Other than that, you hit the nail on the head. I use a mild steel flange on everything we do including stainless as I will not build mild steel headers anymore. I use silicant bronze or coathanger as the guys here call it on the outside of my flanges. I either fuse the inside or drop a little rod with purge gas going.
With all this new dirt header craze around here right now i am trying to figure out a faster way to build since there is not a merge collector to make. We calculated that it takes 14 hours from start to finish to build a set of headers. No matter how you slice it..... For me right now its about balance. Would much rather be a good DAD that a great header builder..... over the years I have learned that no matter how good you are you will not please racers. But I sure can enjoy watching my sons grow up and staying home to watch Charlie Brown Thanksgiving last week..... no header is worth that to me anymore....
mini sprint header right now for Tulsa shootout coming....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
lada ok
- Guru
- Posts: 1089
- Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 9:20 pm
- Location: te puke, bay of plenty, new zealand
Re: First time header build
I should also ask, how are you calculating your # 's?
do you have customers that come armed with the dimensions of the tubing ?
do you have customers that come armed with the dimensions of the tubing ?
Re: First time header build
i tig all my headers. we dont even have a mig welder in our shop any more. As far as what to build for applications, we just do some simple math and figure out what the rpm bands needs to be then start building. for the most part we get it pretty close....
the mini sprint spends its time upstairs between 12,500 and 15,500 rpms..... we made a trick tri-y header for it and we threw something we have never seen in the mini sprint world on the end of it..... we shall see how it does in Tulsa.....
the mini sprint spends its time upstairs between 12,500 and 15,500 rpms..... we made a trick tri-y header for it and we threw something we have never seen in the mini sprint world on the end of it..... we shall see how it does in Tulsa.....