High octane fuel burns slower?

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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Kevin Johnson wrote:
140Air wrote:
http://chemistry.tutorvista.com/organic-chemistry/toluene.html wrote:Under normal conditions, toluene forms all three isomers, out of that ortho-derivative forms around 63 % with 34% of para-product and 3% of meta-product.
Woa. Be careful when taking things out of context. In this case, ortho, para, meta refers to the positioning of two functional groups on a benzene ring. They were discussing nitro-toluene. The nitro can go on three different positions with reference to where the methyl is. But Toluene only has the one methyl group. There are no isomers.
Kevin Johnson wrote:Scroll down in that site to "Toluene Structure". I should have included this information so it was not confusing.
Ok.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Adger Smith wrote:Now, after all this has been thrashed about we get to the lowly Carb. Then I guess there is no difference in one carb vs another in the condition of the A/F mixture. Ratio and state of atomization. Yea, right! Is this why race gas is more "Chemical" based than Petro based?
Yes, I think so. If they want to tightly control what's in the fuel they can't have much or any "real" gasoline in it. Too much variability and too many components.

In forms of racing that specify "pump gas", like F1, the gas supplier may "construct" the equivalent of pump gas by blending pure components. For F1, the FIA has to pre-approve the blend and it had better be the same when sampled at the end of each race.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Adger Smith wrote:Now, after all this has been thrashed about we get to the lowly Carb. Then I guess there is no difference in one carb vs another in the condition of the A/F mixture. Ratio and state of atomization. Yea, right! Is this why race gas is more "Chemical" based than Petro based?
Make every carb atomize fuel as much as possible without being a restriction. When you do it is less sensitive to fuel difference, intake runner finish, etc... In some cases I will trade a little flow loss/pumping loss for better boosters.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Kevin Johnson wrote:David just pointed out that iso-octane has numerous isomers, all with varying octane ratings. The engineers at the time simply did not foresee an issue with arbitrarily declaring iso-octane as having 100 octane rating and n-heptane as having 0 octane rating. So the definitions (hence methods) are NOT self-consistent.
I think they did understand the arbitrariness of using an octane/heptane rating system and they knew the isomers of iso-octane. Their results were self-consistent in that each system independently gave consistent results when the specified lab conditions and procedures were followed. No respectable researcher would ever publish a system that was not at least self-consistent. And, no non self-consistent system would ever be adopted. That was all they could do to create a rating system. Today we couldn't do much better in creating a one dimensional scale of fuel behavior.
The fundamental problem is that there is no single number that can compare the behavior of two different fuels. When we have multi-fuel engines each fuel requires a different multi-dimensional map, not just a single, fixed adjustment to fuel metering. They knew this back then. It's the reason they created different systems.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Kevin Johnson previously wrote:David just pointed out that iso-octane has numerous isomers, all with varying octane ratings. The engineers at the time simply did not foresee an issue with arbitrarily declaring iso-octane as having 100 octane rating and n-heptane as having 0 octane rating. So the definitions (hence methods) are NOT self-consistent.
140Air wrote:I think they did understand the arbitrariness of using an octane/heptane rating system and they knew the isomers of iso-octane.
About this time period there was a lot of work going on in atomic orbital theory. Someone probably understood about isomers of iso-octane but I do not think it was considered in automotive engineering or research. Prior to iso-octane, toluene was used and no mention was made of the three isomers. See Ricardo, for example:* [my emphasis]
Page 10

... out on behalf of the Asiatic Petroleum Co., a sample of petrol, consisting mainly of paraffins
from which nearly all the aromatics had been removed by sulphonation, was taken as zero, and at
the other end of the scale pure toluene was chosen; the relative tendency of different fuels to
detonate was then expressed in terms of their “toluene value,” i.e. the equivalent proportion of
toluene which it would be necessary to mix with the standard aromatic free petrol in order to give
it the same tendency to detonate as that of the sample under examination. Later investigation showed
that the standard “aromatic free” petrol which contained about 35 per cent of naphthenes and the
lighter members of the paraffin series, was by no means the worst offender as regards detonation,
and that in fact several samples of commercial petrol were actually considerably worse. Also it was
found that toluene was not so effective in resisting detonation as ethyl alcohol.
Since, however, the expression “toluene value” has become rather widely used, it is probably better to
retain the term. Table I gives the toluene values and the highest useful compression for various fuels.
The highest useful compression ratio may be defined as the highest ratio at which a particularly efficient
engine used for the purpose of investigating the behaviour of fuels could be operated without detonation
at any mixture strength or with any ignition timing, with a standard amount of preheating to the carburettor,
and at a speed of 1500 R.P.M. It is therefore purely a relative term; that is to say, its absolute value
applies only to one particular type of engine operated under one given set of conditions, but its relative
value is applicable to any type of engine and under any conditions, as will be shown later. In this connection
reference may be made to the common belief that the rate of burning of the fuel, though one of the factors
controlling detonation, forms a limit to the speed at which an engine can run.

* http://www.scribd.com/doc/40610101/The- ... rdo#scribd
1931

PREFACE TO NEW EDITION

The present volume is a revised and somewhat extended edition of Vol. II of The Internal-Combustion Engine
published in 1923. During the seven years which have elapsed since the above volume was published progress has
been considerable; it has, however, for the most part taken the form of improving and consolidating existing
orthodox design, and the only important new development which has arisen during this period is the achievement
of the high-speed Diesel. Since progress has, to a large extent, followed along the lines foreshadowed in the
original volume, and since also this volume dealt mainly with general principles rather than specific designs,
there has been little need for actual revision. The present volume therefore contains additions rather than
alterations, and a new chapter has been added dealing with the high-speed Diesel engine.
140Air wrote: Their results were self-consistent in that each system independently gave consistent results when the specified lab conditions and procedures were followed. No respectable researcher would ever publish a system that was not at least self-consistent. And, no non self-consistent system would ever be adopted. That was all they could do to create a rating system. Today we couldn't do much better in creating a one dimensional scale of fuel behavior.
Clearly Ricardo and others hoped that the system was self-consistent, but lacking even the recognition of toluene isomers for an "absolute value" condition set, it was not.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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If one has a motor on the edge of detonation on long hill climbs, we know water/alcohol injection works to reduce the detonation, but what about toluene injection ?
Is the defect in what I see, or what I'm seeing with ?
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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I have a street only Pontiac 462 @ 9.3 compression, 230/240 cam 10" of vacuum at idle.. When I run a locked rotor at 34 degrees, no vacuum advance, it runs like a top, no ping anywhere. When I switch to a distributor with mechanical advance, 34 degrees at 3000 rpm, it pings.. Seems to me it's the movement of the timing causing the ping, once it starts at lower rpm it keeps going...

My motor likes either BP or Exxon premium...
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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pitts64 wrote:I have a street only Pontiac 462 @ 9.3 compression, 230/240 cam 10" of vacuum at idle.. When I run a locked rotor at 34 degrees, no vacuum advance, it runs like a top, no ping anywhere. When I switch to a distributor with mechanical advance, 34 degrees at 3000 rpm, it pings.. Seems to me it's the movement of the timing causing the ping, once it starts at lower rpm it keeps going...

My motor likes either BP or Exxon premium...
Maybe it's burning the fuel more completely with lower timing at lower RPM's, less fuel burning out the exhaust, heating the chamber less. Less heat remaining in the chamber, less chance for preignition or detonation. Try running it at the track, see which nets better performance.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Adger Smith wrote:Now, after all this has been thrashed about we get to the lowly Carb. Then I guess there is no difference in one carb vs another in the condition of the A/F mixture. Ratio and state of atomization. Yea, right! Is this why race gas is more "Chemical" based than Petro based?
I am not sure what you mean by "chemical" based vs "Petro" based. What is the difference?
Yes, I think so. If they want to tightly control what's in the fuel they can't have much or any "real" gasoline in it. Too much variability and too many components.
A few years ago, I tested two batches of Shell pump gasoline obtained from the same station but a week apart. The first sample contained 542 different compounds, the second only 484 different compounds. In addition, both blends contained a number of "unidentified" compounds. There is no such thing as pump gas; only pump gasolines of which there are very, very many.
In forms of racing that specify "pump gas", like F1, the gas supplier may "construct" the equivalent of pump gas by blending pure components. For F1, the FIA has to pre-approve the blend and it had better be the same when sampled at the end of each race.
F1 does not use "pump gas" at all. What they use are special fuel blends that contain the same components as might be found in pump gas but are allowed to change the percentage of each fuel component. With the hundreds of different components that are found in "pump gas" it allows a wide range of chemicals to choose from.

F1 teams will often have a different type of fuel blend for different types of tracks. It is no small wonder why F1 teams often have technical partnerships with oil companies; its not for free fuel.

For endurance races, I normally blend a different fuel than for sprint races. The same holds for various altitudes and extreme temperatures.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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David Redszus wrote: It is most unfortunate that when race fuels are mentioned, even by fuel company marketing reps, octane seems to be the only fuel property that is mentioned. We very often find fuel company marketing reps to be very underinformed regarding their fuels. While every true race fuel refinery has fuel blenders and fuel chemists on staff, they are mostly kept out of sight and contact with race fuel customers. And the promotional literature is commonly written by some ad agency copy gal who knows only the buzz words and little else.

Fuel companies could provide real data regarding their products to help racers make the right decisions. But then, who would listen? :(
A most excellent post David.
I have tried asking a certain small racing fuel vendor about some points on the distillation curve and their representative didn't have a clue. I was seeking a highly volatile leaded racing fuel for cold temperature use and they were unable to help me determine which one of their fuels was the best fit.

But on the subject of high octane fuel, I notice you mentioned tetra methyl lead. What is the characteristic difference between this and the familiar tetra ethyl lead?
Do you do fuel blends with TML or TEL?
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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turbobaldur wrote:
David Redszus wrote: It is most unfortunate that when race fuels are mentioned, even by fuel company marketing reps, octane seems to be the only fuel property that is mentioned. We very often find fuel company marketing reps to be very underinformed regarding their fuels. While every true race fuel refinery has fuel blenders and fuel chemists on staff, they are mostly kept out of sight and contact with race fuel customers. And the promotional literature is commonly written by some ad agency copy gal who knows only the buzz words and little else.

Fuel companies could provide real data regarding their products to help racers make the right decisions. But then, who would listen? :(
A most excellent post David.
I have tried asking a certain small racing fuel vendor about some points on the distillation curve and their representative didn't have a clue. I was seeking a highly volatile leaded racing fuel for cold temperature use and they were unable to help me determine which one of their fuels was the best fit.

But on the subject of high octane fuel, I notice you mentioned tetra methyl lead. What is the characteristic difference between this and the familiar tetra ethyl lead?
Do you do fuel blends with TML or TEL?
If your fuel vendor does not know the distillation curve of the product he sells, find another vendor who does. Or contact the technical services dept of the fuel refinery; they will most certainly know the distillation curves.

Lacking a distil curve, the next best indicator is the RVP (Reid Vapor Pressure) value. Look for a high RVP number since it indicates the ability of the fuel to evaporate.

Both TEL and TML are used by refineries. The choice is mostly due to availability and cost although there are some very small differences in combustion properties.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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David Redszus wrote:
In forms of racing that specify "pump gas", like F1, the gas supplier may "construct" the equivalent of pump gas by blending pure components. For F1, the FIA has to pre-approve the blend and it had better be the same when sampled at the end of each race.
F1 does not use "pump gas" at all. What they use are special fuel blends that contain the same components as might be found in pump gas but are allowed to change the percentage of each fuel component. With the hundreds of different components that are found in "pump gas" it allows a wide range of chemicals to choose from.
That's what I said.
David Redszus wrote:F1 teams will often have a different type of fuel blend for different types of tracks. It is no small wonder why F1 teams often have technical partnerships with oil companies; its not for free fuel.

For endurance races, I normally blend a different fuel than for sprint races. The same holds for various altitudes and extreme temperatures.
Very interesting.
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

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Kevin Johnson wrote:
Kevin Johnson previously wrote:David just pointed out that iso-octane has numerous isomers, all with varying octane ratings. The engineers at the time simply did not foresee an issue with arbitrarily declaring iso-octane as having 100 octane rating and n-heptane as having 0 octane rating. So the definitions (hence methods) are NOT self-consistent.
Kevin, you say a lot of things here. I'm not sure every single thing is wrong, but it looks like it, especially about isomers and what (you think) they knew and the relevance (irrelevance!!!) of the isomers of octane other than 2,2,4-tri-MethylPentane and the imagined existence of "isomers of Toluene".
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Re: High octane fuel burns slower?

Post by Kevin Johnson »

140Air wrote:
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Kevin Johnson previously wrote:David just pointed out that iso-octane has numerous isomers, all with varying octane ratings. The engineers at the time simply did not foresee an issue with arbitrarily declaring iso-octane as having 100 octane rating and n-heptane as having 0 octane rating. So the definitions (hence methods) are NOT self-consistent.
Kevin, you say a lot of things here. I'm not sure every single thing is wrong, but it looks like it, especially about isomers and what (you think) they knew and the relevance (irrelevance!!!) of the isomers of octane other than 2,2,4-tri-MethylPentane and the imagined existence of "isomers of Toluene".
You are certainly free to expound on hyperconjugation, coined in 1939. An isomer is the easiest way for non-chemistry majors to conceptualize it. I remind you that Ricardo wrote the passages in his book a decade or more prior.

If you would like to forward a position on formal reasoning where consistency is based on foundational ambiguity, I am all ears.

You act like I have no conception of the philosophical foundations of science.

I attended a mathematics of language conference where several attendees were from MIT. One of the questions that I asked them is whether it bothered them that a mix of theories were being simultaneously forwarded that depended on different, sometimes conflicting, basic assumptions. No, it did not. They were pragmatists. I do not have a problem with being pragmatic. Git'r done. I do have a problem if someone attempts to wield a warrant of consistency based on pragmatic assumptions. They can HOPE they are consistent as a working assumption.
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