Volvo's forgotten V8 engine

[Newold1]

Many times this forum is pleasantly amazing when so many guys with incredible memories and file access get going on one of these great posts. I just kicked off my shoes and got out the popcorn! Keep it up gentlemen , love the information and banter!

[Keith Morganstein]

The B8444S is another forgotten/overlooked, but more recent V8

[Theodore Rimspoke]

Very interesting info GlennArtl. I’m very sorry it took me 1.5 years to discover your reply. I will investigate your findings closely, and I might even reach out for you in a pm or something similar.

Hi guys. I signed on to SpeedTalk because I stumbled across this forum, while researching the "original" Volvo V8. Probably nobody will ever see this, but I am 99% certain I've figured out the "who" behind the original design of the engine. (I'm a member of the Society of Automotive Historians, and the Historian at Hagerty - specifically the Hagerty Institute for Collector Vehicles - and I'm the Librarian too).

I think it was Ford. I'd seen the oblong openings on the upper block through which the pushrods go, somewhere else.... sure enough, it was the 1952 Lincoln Y-block V8 engine. That engine has a bore pitch (distance between centers of cylinders on each side) of 4.63". The 1954 Ford Y-block V8 engine (and also later 221-260-289-302-351-400 small blocks) have a bore pitch of 4.38".

As Paul Harvey used to day, now for the rest of the story. (As to the presumed "why" of Ford seemingly abandoning this design and production transfer line, then starting over from scratch for the Ford V8).

A man (Chase Morsey Jr) who worked for Ford, and in fact hired in about 1948, was a real Ford guy and was appalled to learn that the Whiz Kids, and ex-GM executives hired in, number crunchers all, had decided to run with an all-new OHV Ford inline six as the exclusive Ford engine from 1952. This would have meant any work on the Ford V8, which ended up to be the Volvo V8, was scrapped. This is presumably how Volvo got the design. http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/boo ... 8-sort-of/

As for why it originally had so many bolts holding the head down, that's easy (and you can see where the bolts would have been on the actual production Volvo V8 block, too...). Boss Kettering of GM had convinced the entire auto industry that super-high octane auto gasolines were right around the corner, and 12.5 to 1 compression ratios would improve economy by 30%, using smaller engines for lighter weight and lower production costs. Studebaker way over-built their 1951 OHV V8 for this reason.

Thus, I believe that because of this series of events, Ford let the design go (which very literally, a down-sized 4.33" bore pitch Lincoln V8) and started over from scratch with the Ford V8 (which originally probably would have come out for 1951, replacing the venerable flathead V8, a year before the OHV six of 1952). In fact, the "Volvo" B36 is closer in design to the 1952 Lincoln OHV "big Y-block" V8 than the 1954 Ford OHV "small Y-block" V8! (Look at Lincoln block photos less heads online and you'll see). Here (if it works): https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ScADnaomeDI/mqdefault.jpg

[hystat]

following. I have one of the B36B engines in my shop. It's the marine AQ180 with dual carbs. 1964 model. I have never had it apart, but it's a good runner. If anyone needs any info about it lemme know. Not sure of the differences to make the extra 60HP- probably just higher rpm and more fuel.

[pdq67]

Not really related to your research, but have you priced those JP Pistons? A customer bought me some years ago, and the price was comparable with a custom forged piston, but the quality definitely wasn't...

I don't expect the cast pistons to be as good as a forged JE custom piston, but I expect them to stand normal use in a low compression engine (7.6:1). Can you specify the problems C_C? Perhaps I must go the forged path after all.

Here in the States, is Jahns Piston still around?

They made very good sand-cast pistons way years ago if I remember right.

pdq67

[Theodore Rimspoke]

following. I have one of the B36B engines in my shop. It's the marine AQ180 with dual carbs. 1964 model. I have never had it apart, but it's a good runner. If anyone needs any info about it lemme know. Not sure of the differences to make the extra 60HP- probably just higher rpm and more fuel.

Interesting @hysat. Can you measure the head height? They say that the CR is significantly higher on the B36B engine. They also say that the pistons are domed to increase the CR. It would have been interesting to know if the increased CR is achieved by the domed pistons alone.

[Theodore Rimspoke]

Not really related to your research, but have you priced those JP Pistons? A customer bought me some years ago, and the price was comparable with a custom forged piston, but the quality definitely wasn't...

I don't expect the cast pistons to be as good as a forged JE custom piston, but I expect them to stand normal use in a low compression engine (7.6:1). Can you specify the problems C_C? Perhaps I must go the forged path after all.

Here in the States, is Jahns Piston still around?

They made very good sand-cast pistons way years ago if I remember right.

pdq67

Jahns Engineering Pistons=JE Pistons

[pdq67]

I don't expect the cast pistons to be as good as a forged JE custom piston, but I expect them to stand normal use in a low compression engine (7.6:1). Can you specify the problems C_C? Perhaps I must go the forged path after all.

Here in the States, is Jahns Piston still around?

They made very good sand-cast pistons way years ago if I remember right.

pdq67

Jahns Engineering Pistons=JE Pistons

Thanks TR!!

I didn't know what the J stood for in JE Pistons.

pdq67

[curbsideclassic]

The Lincoln Y Block V8 was built continuously through 1963, in trucks after it was replaced in cars by the MEL engine in 1958. But the Lincoln Y block and Ford FE share the same bore center spacing, so they could be machined on the same expensive transfer line machines.

There’s a world of difference between letting a few engineers look at your production facilities, to see how they were laid out, to selling a “a production line”. An engine production line is a whole lot of very expensive equipment, specifically designed for a specific engine (or family) that had a specific bore center dimension, as these machines were designed and built to handle just one bore center dimension.

That’s exactly why the Ford Y-Block V8 and the “Windsor” small block V8 that replaced it have the exact same bore center spacing (4.38″). That way the same production/transfer line machines could be used for both.

It’s also why all Pontiac V8s all had the same bore spacing, from 1955 to the last one. Same for Chevy “W” V8s (348/409) and all the subsequent big blocks. Same for larger Olds and Buick V8s, as well as their smaller ones.

Transfer lines are massive investments, designed to last for many decades, despite changes in engine design, other than the bore spacing.

There was no American company that had any reason to sell off a V8 production line except for Packard, and that was later (1957) and its bore spacing was the largest ever. Plus it looks very little design-wise to the Volvo.

As I said before, most likely that line in that book was a mistake. That really does happen, you know.

It’s quite apparent that the Volvo V8 has some design similarities to some American V8s from the early 50s, but that does not mean it used one of the American production lines. American V8’s were roughly copied around the world in the 50s (Russia, China) and they just built their own production lines.

It's also obvious that the Volvo V8 shared a number of parts with the four cylinder engine.

The Volvo V8 was built in very limited quantities. It's not that expensive or difficult to machine blocks in low volume, and it doesn't take a massive transfer line like used in Detroit where the engines were built by the hundreds of thousands. There's a huge difference.

The Volvo V8 obviously shows influence from a number of 1950s American V8s, but that does not mean that it was either a direct copy of any single one, or that it was built on an production line bought from an American company.

A number of companies in Europe, Russia and China designed and built low-volume V8s in the 1950s. It didn't require buying a full production line to do so.

[Theodore Rimspoke]

The Lincoln Y Block V8 was built continuously through 1963, in trucks after it was replaced in cars by the MEL engine in 1958. But the Lincoln Y block and Ford FE share the same bore center spacing, so they could be machined on the same expensive transfer line machines.

There’s a world of difference between letting a few engineers look at your production facilities, to see how they were laid out, to selling a “a production line”. An engine production line is a whole lot of very expensive equipment, specifically designed for a specific engine (or family) that had a specific bore center dimension, as these machines were designed and built to handle just one bore center dimension.

That’s exactly why the Ford Y-Block V8 and the “Windsor” small block V8 that replaced it have the exact same bore center spacing (4.38″). That way the same production/transfer line machines could be used for both.

It’s also why all Pontiac V8s all had the same bore spacing, from 1955 to the last one. Same for Chevy “W” V8s (348/409) and all the subsequent big blocks. Same for larger Olds and Buick V8s, as well as their smaller ones.

Transfer lines are massive investments, designed to last for many decades, despite changes in engine design, other than the bore spacing.

There was no American company that had any reason to sell off a V8 production line except for Packard, and that was later (1957) and its bore spacing was the largest ever. Plus it looks very little design-wise to the Volvo.

As I said before, most likely that line in that book was a mistake. That really does happen, you know.

It’s quite apparent that the Volvo V8 has some design similarities to some American V8s from the early 50s, but that does not mean it used one of the American production lines. American V8’s were roughly copied around the world in the 50s (Russia, China) and they just built their own production lines.

It's also obvious that the Volvo V8 shared a number of parts with the four cylinder engine.

The Volvo V8 was built in very limited quantities. It's not that expensive or difficult to machine blocks in low volume, and it doesn't take a massive transfer line like used in Detroit where the engines were built by the hundreds of thousands. There's a huge difference.

The Volvo V8 obviously shows influence from a number of 1950s American V8s, but that does not mean that it was either a direct copy of any single one, or that it was built on an production line bought from an American company.

A number of companies in Europe, Russia and China designed and built low-volume V8s in the 1950s. It didn't require buying a full production line to do so.

I´m afraid you are right curbsideclassic and I really appreciate your in-depth explanations. But given the fact that you are not God Almighty I will continue my humble research on this, for me, exiting matter. I will measure the the bore spacing on my B36 to get som clues.

You say that «It's also obvious that the Volvo V8 shared a number of parts with the four cylinder engine». On what do you base that? None of us know how many parts the prototype V8 (B8B) shares with the four cylinder engine from that time (B4B). The production version (B36AV) from 1956 has many dimensions (bearing diameters, bore and stroke) and parts in the valve train in common with the famous B18 engine, but that 4-banger was introduced 5 years later (1961). Thus I think it is more correct to say that the Volvo B18 shared a number of parts with the eight cylinder engine.

[Ctc-Ben]

Hello,
I created an account just for this. I stumbled across some notes from an engineer that may help, but they are not complete.
According to the notes I have from a S-P employee, Packard actually came relatively close to producing a smaller V8 in the early 50s and canned the whole project. It was similar to the Studebaker V8, it was small and had many headbolts to allow for higher octane fuel, which you found on the B8B. Conservatively built as well, with non slipper pistons.

As for the K-F engine, there are pictures of it online but it is unclear how the project continued on until 1955 if it did at all. But other than its small size, little in common. It is clearly evident by the photos, that the combustion chamber is of a pent roof design and the block has a real deep skirt. This goes to show that the primary design goal was fuel economy and torque over horse power, not unheard of considering the Studebaker v8 and Buick V8 both did that. How close did the Kaiser V8 get to production is the question, 52 Kaisers were clearly designed for a V8, evident in the of Vs on the car. Point being the project was continued after the Henry J, which was introduced in 1951.

I think after my search your answer, if it did come from the US, will come from the early 50s. Its not unheard of that a engine being canned even when the tooling was being developed. The Chrysler 180 was originally to come with a V6, and the tooling was scrapped. I also wonder how AMC developed their V8 in such a short time with no experience, there had to be some prototypes before 1954 when Mason died. Food for thought anyway.

[Theodore Rimspoke]

Hello,
I created an account just for this. I stumbled across some notes from an engineer that may help, but they are not complete.
According to the notes I have from a S-P employee, Packard actually came relatively close to producing a smaller V8 in the early 50s and canned the whole project. It was similar to the Studebaker V8, it was small and had many headbolts to allow for higher octane fuel, which you found on the B8B. Conservatively built as well, with non slipper pistons.

As for the K-F engine, there are pictures of it online but it is unclear how the project continued on until 1955 if it did at all. But other than its small size, little in common. It is clearly evident by the photos, that the combustion chamber is of a pent roof design and the block has a real deep skirt. This goes to show that the primary design goal was fuel economy and torque over horse power, not unheard of considering the Studebaker v8 and Buick V8 both did that. How close did the Kaiser V8 get to production is the question, 52 Kaisers were clearly designed for a V8, evident in the of Vs on the car. Point being the project was continued after the Henry J, which was introduced in 1951.

I think after my search your answer, if it did come from the US, will come from the early 50s. Its not unheard of that a engine being canned even when the tooling was being developed. The Chrysler 180 was originally to come with a V6, and the tooling was scrapped. I also wonder how AMC developed their V8 in such a short time with no experience, there had to be some prototypes before 1954 when Mason died. Food for thought anyway.

Interesting thoughts Ctc-Ben. And I have «been there» myself. The handmade prototype Volvo Philip housing the B8B even resembles the 1951 Kaiser down to the Darrin Dip.

[Ctc-Ben]

I really wish I could help you more. If I had a time machine. I knew one of Henry J Kaisers secretary's Irma back in the day. I'm still looking through all the stuff she left me before her passing. Talking to her though really gave me some real insight on how Kaiser thought. He truly believed in the economical family sedan, and he thought he could show America the way with what truly became his products in 1951. The liberal use of Aluminum screams possible Kaiser test engine.
There is a real similarity in the two cars I neglected to mention. The Kaiser was supposed to have a V8 in 1952, it really was in the final stages in some form because the Kaisers came with V8 trim. That's not just a design quirk, the tooling was developed for it to say V8, I had to confirm that story by reading the Kaiser club newsletter. But my point is again, when was the Phillip unveiled, 1952.....
More on what I learned about Henry, according to Irma he surrounded himself with people who didn't say no, and pushed them to the limits. Irma really admired him, she traveled to help during the war effort and wound up first working for his ship building company in Swan Island. As a very brilliant and college educated woman, she got to know him. He wasn't used to having no, that's for sure. He did use Joe Frazer from what she made the relationship sound like. I wish I could have talked to her more, but she had dimensia towards the end of her life, she died at age 99. It was especially hard because she was deaf, and was legally blind. I visited her often at the nursing home after the local museum told me about her.... off topic I know.