Torque Monster Dodge V10

[Fusion Works]

I know, this is Speedtalk, however I don't need speed right now, I need more torque to tow my race car. Since Speedtalk has the greatest collection of brilliant engine builders, designers and engineers, I figured this would be the best place to ask my questions.

Background. Engine is a cast iron Dodge Magnum V10 8.0litres, 488 cubic inches (4.00x 3.88). Engine is in a manual transmission equipped 3500 dually. Rear gear is 3.55. Towing 7-10Klbs. No, I don't want a Cummins.

Currently the engine is a beast, stock engine was pretty well designed. Makes 400+ lb-ft from 1800-2400 rpm. Peak Torque is 450ftlbs at 2400rpm, Max HP is 4100rpm. Looking for another 100+ lb ft. HP falls where it falls. Don't need a boat load of power above 5000 rpm. I need a broad power curve to recover from the big rpm drops of the manual transmission.

The engine, as designed from Dodge, makes almost peak torque from 1800-3000rpm. The intake manifold is designed to make torque, it has 25in long runners and is designed to resonate at 3000rpm to help broaden the torque curve.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/gas/specs/8_0v10.htm

All the useful stuff
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/V10.html

My initial thoughts.

.040 over bore
Bump compression up from 8.4 to 9-9.5:1.
Slightly larger camshaft, up duration 6-10 deg over stock cam, increase lift to the .500+ range. Not sure on LSA and Installed centerline.
Use 1.7 roller rockers to get valves open faster, without running more radical cam.
Some head work, obviously don't want massive increase in port volume, want more port velocity and better flow quality.


Look at offset grinding crank to gain more stroke, slightly shorter connecting rod should help pull harder on intake port. In theory.

When looking at camshaft design for torque and bottom end grunt, Am I better off picking a cam that gives me the breathing I need at the upper RPM and then advancing it to shift the power curve back down where I need it?
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam- ... d=770&sb=2
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam- ... d=769&sb=2


I keep reading about big engines being undervalved, but my calculations show the 1.92 intake valve maintains good velocity throughout engine operating range. Should I step up to a 2.0-2.02 valve? Don't see any reason to change the exhaust valve?

Does all port work move the power curve up in the rpm range? The ports look huge, but my normal engine builds are 1/4 the size of this monster.

Plan, get heads flowed and then determine changes and re-flow. Once heads are flowed camshaft selection can begin. I have options for cams.
Looking to cut friction should help power and cut heat, maybe some thinner rings, better oil control, etc. Since the engine doesn't turn much rpm, friction saving can't make up much.

This project seems a little counter to my normal goals, but the challenge seems like fun. What do you think?

[DrillDawg]

My best guess would be to treat it like a 360 with 2 extra cyl, Find the bottle necks, good valve job and bowl blend, raise the compression, cam and headers should get you there, don't forget the tune.

[Flo]

not sure how far you can offset-grind that crank.... but 360 stroker pistons would be niver over shorter rods.
Greets
flo

[pamotorman]

what about a turbo or super charger as they up the torque

[ptuomov]

what about a turbo or super charger as they up the torque

+1

With two turbos, the goals will be met. Size the turbine and turbine housing for early spool, size the compressor for your max power requirement. Then a boost controller with rpm-specific boost profile and you'll have whatever torque curve you want. It will rock everyone's world.

[bigfoot584]

Seriously on a build such as this I'd contact or email Camking
he maybe able to help without a lot of the mods your talking
about in the end save money and have the power your talking
about.

[PackardV8]

The engine, as designed from Dodge, makes almost peak torque from 1800-3000 rpm. . . . I need a broad power curve to recover from the big rpm drops of the manual transmission.

I'm having difficulty reconciling the two statements. With the 3.55 rear, does the transmission drop the engine more than 1200 RPMs between the higher gears?

Is your a NV4500 with 5.61, 3.04, 1.67, 1.00, 0.73 ratios or an NV5600 with 5.63, 3.38, 2.04, 1.39, 1.00, 0.73? If you have the 5-speed, maybe the swap to the 6-speed solves the problem.

[Fusion Works]

Trust me, boost has been considered multiple times. I can build everything and make it work beautifully. My biggest concern is heat load when towing. With 7000k on the back, plus the truck weight going up some of these long hills we have around the south east, I am worried boost will really push the limits of the heads. They aren't known for being the strongest heads on the planet. However two HX35s would do the job and should carry the top end power nicely as well. Who doesn't need 700hp and 900ftlbs of torque? The heat is a major concern. Currently my basic cooling system mods are working pretty well, just not sure about boost under a heavy towing load. Gas mileage can't get much worse. I also worry about the combustion chamber temps with the cast iron heads. I guess water injection could be setup to control that.

The bore is 4.00 so I shouldn't have any problems finding pistons to work with whatever stroke I can get. One thing I noticed about this engine is the size of the rod journals. They are 2.100. That seems pretty common on many Chrysler V8s. I know Viper used the powdered rod and pistons from the 6.1 Hemi when they upped the displacement to 8.3 litres. They use a 4.040 bore and a 3.96 stroke. I figured if I could get that much stroke change, I could use the same rods (assuming the width is correct.) Another thought was a smaller rod journal. How much durability do you lose with the 1.8 Honda journal vs the bigger stuff? I know our Honda engines can make 800+ on that size rod journal without issue.

I can contact Cam King. I am sending a head out to the flowbench at the end of the month. I guess once I have that info, I can begin the process of getting more efficient flow and then select a cam.

The engine currently uses a 1.5mm, 1.5mm , 4.0mm ring pack. Will I see a decent drop in friction by going to a 3mm oil ring set? Since the engine isn't turning a bunch of rpm, is internal friction (beyond a certain point) really an issue? I am going to use a crank scraper and do my normal oiling system upgrades to control drain back around the crankshaft. Based on an initial look in the valley, I can build a cam tray and shield the rotating assembly to cut friction there.

Reliability and TORQUE are the goal, if I want HP my boosted street car and race car get it done.

Thanks for all the ideas

Packard,
The NV4500 has pretty wide gears. The drop from is about 1000-1200 rpms. However when towing heavy there is a huge gap between third and fourth that really hurts the towing efficiency. The NV5600 really helps that by essentially adding an extra gear in there. I have thought about upgrading to that transmission, however, its 3K just for the transmission and they are kinda rare. My NV4500 is in great shape and is relatively easy to get repair parts for. The NV5600 not so much. I would like the six speed, but its a pricey upgrade. I have even thought about switching to 4:10s, but I don't haul that heavy a load (in my opinion). If I were towing 10+ trailer loads yeah I could see that. Besides, why not build an engine. That's where the fun is. Right?

[ptuomov]

You can always keep the boost low, unless you have self control issues! Many of us do, to be fair...

My guess, is that if you set the boost with a controller such that it'll make 500 ft-lbs throughout the rev range and don't even take off the valve covers, it'll be the most reliable way to get there. You just need a couple of pounds of boost the N/A torque peak rpm and more below and above it. Might require a custom wastegate spring, though! The engine looks perfect for mild turbo conversion, with 8.4:1 compression, long runners to spool it up early, etc.

If you spend the same amount of money and effort to improve the cooling system and its control logic as it takes to stroke, bore, and recam the engine, you'll have the baddest a$$ cooling system in the world.

Just my opinion, without knowing anything about this engine other than what your spec sheet in the link said.

Trust me, boost has been considered multiple times. I can build everything and make it work beautifully. My biggest concern is heat load when towing. With 7000k on the back, plus the truck weight going up some of these long hills we have around the south east, I am worried boost will really push the limits of the heads. They aren't known for being the strongest heads on the planet. However two HX35s would do the job and should carry the top end power nicely as well. Who doesn't need 700hp and 900ftlbs of torque? The heat is a major concern. Currently my basic cooling system mods are working pretty well, just not sure about boost under a heavy towing load. Gas mileage can't get much worse. I also worry about the combustion chamber temps with the cast iron heads. I guess water injection could be setup to control that.

The bore is 4.00 so I shouldn't have any problems finding pistons to work with whatever stroke I can get. One thing I noticed about this engine is the size of the rod journals. They are 2.100. That seems pretty common on many Chrysler V8s. I know Viper used the powdered rod and pistons from the 6.1 Hemi when they upped the displacement to 8.3 litres. They use a 4.040 bore and a 3.96 stroke. I figured if I could get that much stroke change, I could use the same rods (assuming the width is correct.) Another thought was a smaller rod journal. How much durability do you lose with the 1.8 Honda journal vs the bigger stuff? I know our Honda engines can make 800+ on that size rod journal without issue.

I can contact Cam King. I am sending a head out to the flowbench at the end of the month. I guess once I have that info, I can begin the process of getting more efficient flow and then select a cam.

The engine currently uses a 1.5mm, 1.5mm , 4.0mm ring pack. Will I see a decent drop in friction by going to a 3mm oil ring set? Since the engine isn't turning a bunch of rpm, is internal friction (beyond a certain point) really an issue? I am going to use a crank scraper and do my normal oiling system upgrades to control drain back around the crankshaft. Based on an initial look in the valley, I can build a cam tray and shield the rotating assembly to cut friction there.

Reliability and TORQUE are the goal, if I want HP my boosted street car and race car get it done.

Thanks for all the ideas

Packard,
The NV4500 has pretty wide gears. The drop from is about 1000-1200 rpms. However when towing heavy there is a huge gap between third and fourth that really hurts the towing efficiency. The NV5600 really helps that by essentially adding an extra gear in there. I have thought about upgrading to that transmission, however, its 3K just for the transmission and they are kinda rare. My NV4500 is in great shape and is relatively easy to get repair parts for. The NV5600 not so much. I would like the six speed, but its a pricey upgrade. I have even thought about switching to 4:10s, but I don't haul that heavy a load (in my opinion). If I were towing 10+ trailer loads yeah I could see that. Besides, why not build an engine. That's where the fun is. Right?

[wyrmrider]

X2 call camking more lift same duration - throw some high lift rockers on the intakes- you have 1.6 now if I remember correctly check retainer to stem seal and new and newer style springs
X2 on the blower, headers
BVVC on compression boost unless you can get tight quench you risk detonation DC Computer is not street friendly even with Premium IMHO- anyone else???
are you regular or premium perhaps a different premium/ regular tunes
forget .040 not worth it- you want to bore SBM as little as possible and chances are your bores are OK
Changed your timing chain (and gears)?
use OEM or Wix made oil filters
your rods are same as 5.2 and are forged- they are OK USE DC Bolts (SPS) if rebuilding"
360 bore but stroke is already more than 360 but rods the same so going to be hard finding off the shelf pistons- I would think that unless someone has a 4" stroker kit using same as 360 don't waste $$
?? are deck height the same? IDK but I may have notes somewhere as we bored and honed and did block work on some a long time ago
there was a 505 V10 with 3.96 stroke but IDK if it would fit your block Measure twice cut once 3.88 to 3.96 is only .080 not worth it unless you could score a free crank and had to rebuild anyway
might be a way to get higher compression pistons from a viper- but these may be tooo - that's way toooo high
some rods are narrower in the pin area- if you have the wide 360 kind you might have to narrow for some pistons
Engine may have premium valves- do not go to bigger cheap valves
for rockers maybe two different stud sizes??? studs???
you have to keep the cats to make sensors of computer work but you can go to hi flow cats - better muffler I'd use a 36" Maremont round turbo
computer is tough
Mustang injectors give a better pattern

[Fusion Works]

You can always keep the boost low, unless you have self control issues! Many of us do, to be fair...

What is this self control you speculate about? I am an American, by damn, That means I must daily drive my 8.0 Dually with twin turbos sucking all of the fuel in the world through the tank, to McDonalds for a Big Mac Supersized value meal and nobody should complain. HAHA

My guess, is that if you set the boost with a controller such that it'll make 500 ft-lbs throughout the rev range and don't even take off the valve covers, it'll be the most reliable way to get there. You just need a couple of pounds of boost the N/A torque peak rpm and more below and above it. Might require a custom wastegate spring, though! The engine looks perfect for mild turbo conversion, with 8.4:1 compression, long runners to spool it up early, etc.

If you spend the same amount of money and effort to improve the cooling system and its control logic as it takes to stroke, bore, and recam the engine, you'll have the baddest a$$ cooling system in the world.

Just my opinion, without knowing anything about this engine other than what your spec sheet in the link said.

A quick estimate of 6-8 psi, should put the HP around the 500 range. Looks like I need about 70lbs/min of airflow at peak to make that kind of power. A couple of GTX30s should do that easily.

The last trip with the truck and me monitoring everything, saw IATs in the 120F range at full load up hill, cooling system would see 174-200F. 200F being the highest on a long grade with the truck in 4th maintaining 65mph. AFRs were 14:7 the whole time, unless I was in the top of the rpm band at WOT at that point it would drop down to mid 13s. This was towing 5000lb enclosed brick, 95deg ambient temps, with 455lbs of fuel and two occupants. Figure 11500 GCVW.

Still just paranoid about boost in a towing application. I get it in a racing application or street application, but I still can't get the heat aspect out of my head for towing purposes.

[wyrmrider]

as said 5 lbs will give you about 25% which is enough
BTW does that motor have any quench now? SBM really help with less than .050 piston to head
A centrifugal kit should be enough find someone who has already done this!!!!
as for heat
use an intercooler
do the exhaust first and report back
that also gets rid of heat

[ptuomov]

A centrifugal kit should be enough find someone who has already done this!!!!

If a turbo kit exists, I'd go for that. The centrifugal supercharger can't get both the bottom end and top end torque up the same way. Of course, centrifugal kit is likely to be somewhat cheaper.

[OILEAKY]

Sounds like a fun project'
Before you throw a ton of money at it,
Drop that rear gear 10 %, (instant 10% more wheel torque)
Do a little bowl and seat work, higher lift cam, get some tight quench.
Your truck will thank you.
If that doesn't get you what you're after, you haven't lost anything, go ahead and turbo/intercool it.
Oileaky

[PackardV8]

Still just paranoid about boost in a towing application. . . . . I still can't get the heat aspect out of my head for towing purposes.

Given they're operated at the same RPM and torque production, how much hotter would the combustion chamber/EGT be on the turbocharged engine versus a larger displacement higher compression cammed up NA?

Since all big trucks have been turbocharged for decades now, it would seem the way to go in a towing application.