Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

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hoffman900
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by hoffman900 »

modok wrote:I agree about the anti-reversion chamber.
It's really not that different than just putting a large volume muffler right there. Muffler/resonator/ar chamber........different names, but it's a sudden change is size/volume located at a tuned distance back from the last Y, that's the key concept. A specific length and diameter, but for it to BE a specific length it has to END, and so you need it to "think" it's in open air, with the end terminating in a large volume OR abrupt step-up in size. Example; from the muffler to ar-chamber is 2" pipe, but then from there back you go 2.5" pipe, and that can be a good choice if there is no room to fit any good size muffler in the location you want it to be.

A straight through muffler.........which is usually filled with packing(fiberglass?) may not do the job, because the packing takes up a lot of space and may act like a straight tube, or....act like who knows what. I've had it happen. I stay away from tapers and glasspacks......just too unpredictable.


The reversion caused by exhaust may not look that different than the normal standoff, but the key difference being the exhaust is making it happen a lot sooner than it should be.
Yep!

Calvin Elston turned me on to this kind of set-up. They even now sell them for dirt track cars:
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From the sellers:
Since the public introduction of our anti-reversion muffler by crateinsider.com, I’ve received multiple questions about these mufflers each week. So, I’ve decided to sit down and try to explain the benefits of reducing exhaust reversion.

Without getting too technical, which I’m not very technical anyway, we must first understand what exhaust reversion is, and secondly, how it affects an engine. Reversion is simply the flow of exhaust gasses back into the combustion chamber when the downward movement of the piston creates a vacuum in the cylinder. This event occurs when the camshaft is on the overlap, i.e. the exhaust valve is still open as the intake stroke begins. Now begin to think about the spent gasses that just left the combustion chamber, traveling out of your header pipe, approaching the collector and exiting directly from the collector or extension in the form of a pressure wave. When this pressure wave reaches the end of the pipe, it will be reflected in the form of a pulse. Simply put your hand over the end of your collector with the engine running, and you can feel these pulses. Some of this reflected pressure wave in the form of a pulse is then drawn back into the header thanks to camshaft overlap. This occurs, again, as both the exhaust and intake valve are open and the piston is moving back down the cylinder. The movement of the piston back down the cylinder, coupled with the opening of the intake valve as the exhaust valve is still open, creates an instantaneous vacuum that pulls air from the pressure wave/pulse back into the cylinder. Any exhaust gases that are drawn into the combustion chamber will displace the air/fuel mixture being drawn in through the intakes valves, contaminating the charge in the combustion chamber, thus reducing the volumetric efficiency of the engine, as well as engine power/torque. The more overlap that is built into a camshaft, the more reversion the engine sees. In extreme cases, you will also see residue from exhaust gasses in the plenum of intake manifolds. This is quite common on street engines with big radical camshafts that “beat the earth,” as people here in the south like to say.

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Over the years people have done everything to combat exhaust reversion, and free up horse power and torque that is literally being wasted due to the nature of the 4 cycle engine. If a racer doesn’t have the same budget as a NASCAR team that can afford to pay $5,000+ for headers and exhaust that are tuned specifically for their application, then they are reliant on the header manufacturers that mass produce product for the general public. However, even the common header manufacturers have done what they can do over the years to limit exhaust reversion in racing applications, and still be affordable. You most commonly see their efforts in the form of flanges that are larger in diameter than the exhaust ports, stepped headers, tri-y headers, merge collectors, different primary tube lengths from cylinder to cylinder, etc. While all of these things have significantly cut down on exhaust reversion, all of these things together, or any of these things by themselves have not eliminated it. So the idea of the anti-reversion muffler (it’s not really a muffler by the way, it’s an anti-reversion chamber), is to completely eliminate exhaust reversion. By doing this, we gain free power which usually comes in the form of significant torque gains in the 2,500-4,500rpm range.

Now for a little history lesson. Anti-reversion technology for exhaust systems was originally created by a man named Jim Fueling, who owned Fueling Industries in California. I won’t go into details about how smart he was or his accomplishments. You’ll just have to trust me when I say he was one smart man, who revolutionized many aspects of the automotive performance industry. Back in the mid to late 80's, Mr. Fueling contacted my dad, and came to our shop with many of his exhaust “tricks” in order to do some engine dyno work. He spent three days dynoing with us, and we instantly became believers in his technology. Over the next several years, my father and Jim became good friends, and we often did engine dyno work for him. One of the things that Jim came up with were what he referred to as “header diodes”. These were anti-reversion chambers that were welded to each primary tube of a header. These diodes, along with Jim’s merge collectors, made massive torque numbers vs. standard headers. Again, we were sold on Jim’s creation. Fast forward many years later, in our chassis dyno room here in North Carolina. My dad, my brother, and myself are standing around brainstorming ideas on how to externally make more power out of the GM 604 engine. I suggested we revisit some Jim Fueling exhaust technology, and try the diodes in the header primaries. But the question of cost, practicality, and production was raised by my dad, and that idea was scratched. So I then suggested a muffler. This idea took, and my dad contacted the header manufacturer we were using at the time, told them what we wanted, and they made a pair of mufflers for testing on their headers. Unfortunately these mufflers were not exactly what we wanted, but they did make a little bit of a difference. The header manufacturer then started including this muffler in their header sets. For several years we used this design. About a year after my dad passed away, I suggested to my brother that we revisit the original anti-reversion muffler idea that we tried years ago. So my brother Mike began making the tooling to correctly stamp out the mufflers that my dad originally wanted built. About a week later, we had the exact muffler that my dad had originally asked for. Once we began dyno testing, our results were exactly what we had been looking for. We then began making these mufflers for our engine customers only. We continued this for one complete racing season, giving the customers that believed in us as much advantage as we could. But now, thanks to crateinsider.com, we are selling this design to the public.

We actually make three different variations of this anti-reversion muffler, depending on engine output. We currently have winning cars using one variation or another of this design running in the Lucas Oil Series, World of Outlaw Sprint Car Series & Late Model Series, UMP Late Models & Modifieds, NeSmith Racing Series, RUSH Racing Series, FASTRAK Racing Series, SECA Racing Series, SCCA, USAC , and the list goes on and on. We have seen torque gains of 50-60 ftlbs on open engines, and more recently 100ftlbs on Willy’s Carburetor & Dyno Shops chassis dyno (If you don’t believe it, call Willy at 618-262-8021 and ask him). We’ve seen gains of 15-25ftlbs between 2,500 and 4,500rpm on GM 604 engines, and lower horse power engines that use smaller less radical cam’s. We’ve seen up to 7 horse power and 9ftlbs of torque being gained on 4cyl 2300cc engines. Again the list goes on and on yet again.

To make a long story short, reducing and or eliminating exhaust reversion is free power. Or at the very least, it’s cheap power. Preventing reversion will reduce the contamination of the air/fuel mixture by the spent exhaust gasses and will improve the efficiency of the engine. It’s really a very simple concept when you look at it in simple non-technical terms.

Please Note: Every exhaust system and engine is different. Some exhaust systems are more efficient than others, so anti-reversion result can vary. As a general rule of thumb, we have found that the longer the header primary tubes are, the closer you will want the muffler to the collector. Shorter primaries usually like about 12"-14" of extension before the anti-reversion muffler. We have also seen gains on tri-y headers, but at the same time we’ve seen a few tri-y’s that don’t benefit from the anti-reversion muffler. So, we always suggest dynoing this muffler on every application, unless it’s an application (such as the 604) that we have already figured out for you.

These mufflers are available at http://store.crateinsider.com/anti-reve ... -per-pair/

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Steve Hendren
Hendren Racing Engines
1310 US HWY 221 North
Rutherfordton, NC 28139
828-286-0780
-Bob
hoffman900
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by hoffman900 »

They're easy to make. All it takes is a larger diameter pipe, pie cut the ends, fold over, and weld.

Really this serves as a bandaid because your header is too big in diameter and it's killing any gas velocity allowing for 'atmosphere' to come in the back door.

For a Tri-Y for a motor like yours, diameter wise it should be:

tube equal to port size in area - which is hard in your case. Step it at least once before reaching the first Y. Then go up two sizes for the secondary.

If you were making 190hp +, you'd be looking at a header like this: 1 3/8" to 1 1/2 - (Y) - 1 3/4 (Y) with a 1 7/8" choke to a 2 1/4" tailpipe. I'd also use a A/R chamber at a tune length from the collector here too.

That should give you some perspective on how large your exhaust is currently.
-Bob
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by RL »

hoffman900 wrote:Really this serves as a bandaid because your header is too big in diameter and it's killing any gas velocity allowing for 'atmosphere' to come in the back door.
Exactly.

Anti-reversion aids can work, but using velocity is better.

Higher velocity not only stops waves reversing, but because the velocity is higher the waves are stronger, and that makes more power.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by leebrignull »

Ok this morning spent a bit of time underneath the car with a tape measure.

You know sometimes things always seem to go against you.... well if I shorten the second primaries by about 6", which is in the region we have been discussing, then the total length of the system from the last Y back to the rear bumper is bang on 111", which RL is right where the "worst length" from your Pipemax calculations is. Duh !

So, exiting at the back of the rear wheel doesn't work as it makes pretty much no difference as the boot/trunk is so short, and cannot get it out in front of the wheel either (remember its street legal too) as its to low and trailing arm is in the way.

So is there a way of "fooling it" into thinking its shorter than it is ?

Maybe by incorporating this chamber into it at the suggested 74.6 (which happens to be directly above the rear axle) by stepping it up to 2 1/2"as suggested Modok, and then through a muffler and out still at the 111" ??

Also, do I make this chamber step at that point as well as the magaphone, or are we doing one type or the other ??

Cheers boys, hope your having a good christmas break, as well as me bugging you...
hoffman900
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by hoffman900 »

Yes,

Put the A/R chamber at the 35" mark (assuming you have it peak at 6000rpm). This is with your 2" pipe going into it. Then go 2 1/4 to the rear. Make the chamber volume as big as will fit.

Do this for now and see what happens.
-Bob
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by leebrignull »

hoffman900 wrote:They're easy to make. All it takes is a larger diameter pipe, pie cut the ends, fold over, and weld.

Really this serves as a bandaid because your header is too big in diameter and it's killing any gas velocity allowing for 'atmosphere' to come in the back door.

For a Tri-Y for a motor like yours, diameter wise it should be:

tube equal to port size in area - which is hard in your case. Step it at least once before reaching the first Y. Then go up two sizes for the secondary.

If you were making 190hp +, you'd be looking at a header like this: 1 3/8" to 1 1/2 - (Y) - 1 3/4 (Y) with a 1 7/8" choke to a 2 1/4" tailpipe. I'd also use a A/R chamber at a tune length from the collector here too.

That should give you some perspective on how large your exhaust is currently.
Hoffman, I gather they made the header diameter that big because when they squashed it to make a oval (to cover the two small head ports) it happened to be the right size..... mmmmmmm.

If I knew as much then as what you guys have taught me over the last week or so I would have had some made up, but not a cheap prospect here in New Zealand for a play car, so went the other way unfortunately.... ok made a mistake.

If I can get a final design out of you, RL, and Modok with just jiggling around what I have and see if that can make enough of a change all good, if not, new headers I suppose....

Cheers,
Lee.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by hoffman900 »

Well, just work on the tailpipe for now. One thing at a time. We really can't know exactly what to do without knowing where your power actually peaks.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by modok »

How much space do you have around 35" from the last Y?
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by leebrignull »

hoffman900 wrote:Yes,

Put the A/R chamber at the 35" mark (assuming you have it peak at 6000rpm). This is with your 2" pipe going into it. Then go 2 1/4 to the rear. Make the chamber volume as big as will fit.

Do this for now and see what happens.
Is there another harmonic point I can try this Bob ?, as its right where my first muffler is, problem with such a short car, not alot of pipe length to play with !

Cheers,
Lee.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by leebrignull »

I suppose I could ditch that muffler and and place it in there, the 35" mark gives me only 8" before I need to head up over the axle, if I did shorten the 2nd primaries it would give me another 6" to play with though ?

Lee.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

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leebrignull wrote:I suppose I could ditch that muffler and and place it in there, the 35" mark gives me only 8" before I need to head up over the axle, if I did shorten the 2nd primaries it would give me another 6" to play with though ?

Lee.
Replace the muffler with it. It's going to deepen the sound some and may quiet it to some degree.

Don't touch the header yet. Not without knowing where the engine peaks at.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by leebrignull »

hoffman900 wrote:
leebrignull wrote:I suppose I could ditch that muffler and and place it in there, the 35" mark gives me only 8" before I need to head up over the axle, if I did shorten the 2nd primaries it would give me another 6" to play with though ?

Lee.
Replace the muffler with it. It's going to deepen the sound some and may quiet it to some degree.

Don't touch the header yet. Not without knowing where the engine peaks at.
Ok, so if I extend the length before I head up over the axle I can probably squeeze in a length of 10" and a diameter of 5", is that going to be big enough for what we need ?

Then need to enlarge the rest of the system out to 2 1/4" with a new rear muffler, so will be out of touch for a while till I get this rebuilt in the new year.

RL old buddy, what are your thoughts?, value your opinion as I know your approach was slightly different, want to try both but of course need to pick one, shortened headers with a megaphone would of course mean I don't need to rebuild the rear section exhaust just to try to see if it makes a difference....

Cheers,
Lee.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by RL »

hoffman900 wrote:Yes,

Put the A/R chamber at the 35" mark (assuming you have it peak at 6000rpm). This is with your 2" pipe going into it. Then go 2 1/4 to the rear. Make the chamber volume as big as will fit.

Do this for now and see what happens.
Exactly, any open box baffled muffler at a tuned length acts as a termination box - it thinks it's the end of the tail pipe -. A straight through perforated tube muffler is basically a straight pipe.

I would definitely be cutting out that 6" section in the secondariness, and I would be even making the collector a slip-on.

The pipes we made for the Dolomite that made 20 more rwhp are only one inch shorter than what I gave you for yours, so I have no reason to think the lengths would not work, but they were the smaller diameter.

Any box with a few baffles.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by modok »

Piece of cake then! all you have to do is replace your muffler with a different type of muffler. i don't know what brands are popular there but here we have flo-pro , flowmaster 2 chamber, Hooker aerochamber. i have two catalytic converters that the guts blew out...........that'd do nicely.
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Re: Weber DCOE 45 rich phase

Post by leebrignull »

Funny, you spend the whole of your life thinking straight through is the way to go with no restrictions, then the boys in the know say I need to baffle it with plates of some type..... I'm already grey, and this isn't helping....

Old cat would be great wouldn't it, will try my mates in the exhaust world and see how I go, then chop it open an see what I can come up with.
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