Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

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GHP
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Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by GHP »

I have a 263/270 @ 050 hyd roller in my 440 ci LS, .390 lobe lift on the intake, 362 lobe lift on the exhaust with 1.8 T&D rockers, lobe separation is 110 deg.

Timing figures are 313 and 322 @ .006" valve timing @ .050 is, IN 21BTDC and close at 61ABDC Comp lobe 2136R Cam core is #54-000-11 same as solid roller.
EX 65BBDC and close at 25ATDC Comp lobe 13169R

I have the race Morel hydraulic lifters but im not happy with the noise, need to know if I can use solids and close the lash up..
I have emailed Comp but no reply, I assume they will tell me to change the cam. Cam King are you there ?????

Regards, Garry.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by statsystems »

You can do it. I've done it. I detest hydraulic lifters in all varieties for anything performance oriented.

Lash at .0015-.002 cold and never look back. It will make noise though. You just have more power. Everywhere.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by tjs44 »

Comp had me set mine at 6 thou on the 400 lobe lift Hyd roller cam.Also they wanted 200 on the seats and 600 open.Im told that not all Hyd roller cams can run the solids because of the ramps.Cam King wil. Tell you not advisable I'm sure.Tom
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by CamKing »

Assuming the cam has a .006" "hydr" ramp(it could be a .004" ramp), to reliably run mechanical roller lifters on it, you would need the Hot lash to be below .0108"(.006"x1.8 ). With an aluminum block and heads, I would bet you're getting more then .012" growth from cold to hot, so even if you set the cold lash at .0000", you would be off the ramp when the engine was hot. That will put the valve acceleration, on and off the seat, way too high, and shorten the life of your valvetrain.
If your cam is one of Comp's more aggressive cams, with only a .004" ramp, or one of their profiles with no ramp on the opening side, the acceleration would be even higher.

Bottom Line: If you want to run mechanical roller lifters, run a cam that's designed for mechanical roller lifters. If you think you've got a better idea, then the guys that are designing the cams, you don't.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by statsystems »

CamKing wrote:Assuming the cam has a .006" "hydr" ramp(it could be a .004" ramp), to reliably run mechanical roller lifters on it, you would need the Hot lash to be below .0108"(.006"x1.8 ). With an aluminum block and heads, I would bet you're getting more then .012" growth from cold to hot, so even if you set the cold lash at .0000", you would be off the ramp when the engine was hot. That will put the valve acceleration, on and off the seat, way too high, and shorten the life of your valvetrain.
If your cam is one of Comp's more aggressive cams, with only a .004" ramp, or one of their profiles with no ramp on the opening side, the acceleration would be even higher.

Bottom Line: If you want to run mechanical roller lifters, run a cam that's designed for mechanical roller lifters. If you think you've got a better idea, then the guys that are designing the cams, you don't.


I do it with the express understanding and permission of the cam company I use. Still have not heard of a failure.


Taking your aluminum block example and a .020 hot lash, you'd need to be .006-.008 cold. Most guys don't do that. I've checked engines that were .040 hot because the cold lash was off.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Seems these cam companies like Comp need to start selling the customers
that want a racing LS motor, sell them a Solid roller cam and lifters
in the first place. Hyd's are great right up to the point where they jsut hit a big brick performance wall. With 263@.050" cam duration, the entended rpm is clear
in the realm of a solid roller lifter and cam , not the street realm of a hyd roller setup.

Have fun keeping that lash at +/-.001" now with solid lifters on a hyd design cam.
Enjoy the noise and shorter life,
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by statsystems »

F-BIRD'88 wrote:Seems these cam companies like Comp need to start selling the customers
that want a racing LS motor, sell them a Solid roller cam and lifters
in the first place. Hyd's are great right up to the point where they jsut hit a big brick performance wall. With 263@.050" cam duration, the entended rpm is clear
in the realm of a solid roller lifter and cam , not the street realm of a hyd roller setup.

Have fun keeping that lash at +/-.001" now with solid lifters on a hyd design cam.
Enjoy the noise and shorter life,

Been doing it for a long time now. Not a problem.

I agree. I never sell a hydraulic roller. Waste of money. But people think they can have their cake and eat it too. Real life ain't like school.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by CamKing »

statsystems wrote: I do it with the express understanding and permission of the cam company I use. Still have not heard of a failure.


Taking your aluminum block example and a .020 hot lash,
.020" hot lash on a cam designed as a hydraulic will beat the hell out of the valvetrain, and shorten it's life expectancy.
If a cam company is telling you to do this, they're either designing very slow cams, with no area, or they don't know much about cam design. You can't fix stupid.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by statsystems »

CamKing wrote:
statsystems wrote: I do it with the express understanding and permission of the cam company I use. Still have not heard of a failure.


Taking your aluminum block example and a .020 hot lash,
.020" hot lash on a cam designed as a hydraulic will beat the hell out of the valvetrain, and shorten it's life expectancy.
If a cam company is telling you to do this, they're either designing very slow cams, with no area, or they don't know much about cam design. You can't fix stupid.

I was talking about .020 on a solid lifter. If it's all aluminum, you need to be no more than about .004 cold. Most guys set them looser than that.

I'd have to go back and look, but I think 3-4 of the first 10 or so HRT cams I put solid rollers on we're your cams. They are still going.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by ingram »

CamKing wrote:Bottom Line: If you want to run mechanical roller lifters, run a cam that's designed for mechanical roller lifters. If you think you've got a better idea, then the guys that are designing the cams, you don't.
Well said. =D>
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by CamKing »

statsystems wrote: I was talking about .020 on a solid lifter. If it's all aluminum, you need to be no more than about .004 cold. Most guys set them looser than that.

I'd have to go back and look, but I think 3-4 of the first 10 or so HRT cams I put solid rollers on we're your cams. They are still going.
If it's an aluminum block, and aluminum headed engine, the minimum growth you will see is .012". If you set the valves at .004" cold, and they grow to a hot lash of .016", assuming a 1.6 rocker, the lash point will be at .010" at the lifter. That's at least .004" past the end of the "Hydr" ramp. The acceleration rate will be at least double of what it's designed to be. The velocity at which the valve will hit the seat, on closing, will be higher then that of a 1.000" lift drag race roller profile.

Just because you got away with doing something stupid, doesn't mean you should keep doing it.
I used a rock to hammer in some nails, when I was camping once. It doesn't mean I should now toss all my hammers in the trash.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by Walter R. Malik »

CamKing wrote:
statsystems wrote: I was talking about .020 on a solid lifter. If it's all aluminum, you need to be no more than about .004 cold. Most guys set them looser than that.

I'd have to go back and look, but I think 3-4 of the first 10 or so HRT cams I put solid rollers on we're your cams. They are still going.
If it's an aluminum block, and aluminum headed engine, the minimum growth you will see is .012". If you set the valves at .004" cold, and they grow to a hot lash of .016", assuming a 1.6 rocker, the lash point will be at .010" at the lifter. That's at least .004" past the end of the "Hydr" ramp. The acceleration rate will be at least double of what it's designed to be. The velocity at which the valve will hit the seat, on closing, will be higher then that of a 1.000" lift drag race roller profile.

Just because you got away with doing something stupid, doesn't mean you should keep doing it.
I used a rock to hammer in some nails, when I was camping once. It doesn't mean I should now toss all my hammers in the trash.
Although a lot of the OEM hydraulic lifter camshafts have slow flanks immediately after the lash ramp to maybe allow the ability to do this; I certainly would not recommend it.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by MadBill »

I can understand how a guy might start out with a hydraulic roller setup and then due to noise, pump-up/collapse issues, etc. want to change to solids. What I can't understand is that with a top-notch set of SR lifters costing triple the price of the average SR cam, why he'd accept the hit to durability and the sub-par performance contingent on sticking with the hydraulic cam. #-o
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by statsystems »

CamKing wrote:
statsystems wrote: I was talking about .020 on a solid lifter. If it's all aluminum, you need to be no more than about .004 cold. Most guys set them looser than that.

I'd have to go back and look, but I think 3-4 of the first 10 or so HRT cams I put solid rollers on we're your cams. They are still going.
If it's an aluminum block, and aluminum headed engine, the minimum growth you will see is .012". If you set the valves at .004" cold, and they grow to a hot lash of .016", assuming a 1.6 rocker, the lash point will be at .010" at the lifter. That's at least .004" past the end of the "Hydr" ramp. The acceleration rate will be at least double of what it's designed to be. The velocity at which the valve will hit the seat, on closing, will be higher then that of a 1.000" lift drag race roller profile.

Just because you got away with doing something stupid, doesn't mean you should keep doing it.
I used a rock to hammer in some nails, when I was camping once. It doesn't mean I should now toss all my hammers in the trash.

Pay attention. I can set valves. Like I said, I've used YOUR HR cams with solids. Never with an aluminum block. Just because you think it's stupid don't mean shit to me. What stupid is a hydraulic roller lifter. Keep beating your head off of rocks.

FWIW, just because you say it don't make it gospel. I'll keep doing it my way. I'd rather never see another HR.
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Re: Solid rollers on LS Hyd cam

Post by RW TECH »

Not sure why there are so many problems with hydraulics. Maybe I don't get out of the house enough but I haven't experienced noise issues, pumping up, bleeding down, or anything close.

What I have seen is a total loss of .010"-.012" peak lift & a little loss of resolution at the opening point at 8,300 RPM with a bunch of stock parts (including full-travel lifters), a good cam, and an inexpensive set of springs that fit a stock retainer.

Maybe I'm just lucky. (?)
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