100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

[MadBill]

BMW already has a turboed car that uses a OEM Water/methanol injection system to allow both higher compression and boost on existing fuel.

Didn't Olds do that in 1962?

Uhh...yes. See my and others' posts starting 12 back...

[F-BIRD'88]

The only reason the retail price of high octane fuel at the pump has a higher retail preice is you are willing to pay more for that fuel. It does not cost any more for the refiner to make..

I might find your statement believable if it were backed up with actual facts showing oil refiner costs for making different grades of fuel..

The key is "different grades" .. It does cost more to have more than 1 grrade octane gas at the pump. But refining a lower octane fuel and a higher octane unleaded street pump gas cost the same for each. The only justifiable cost difference is the need to have more than 1 octane
available. That cost more. If there was only 1 octane and it was a higher octane unleaded
gas as the standard and only available at the pump. It would COST LESS to make, deliver and sell than the choice of low/mid and higher octane pump gas does.
A single standard 100(ron) octane pump gas (94 R+M/2) reduces real costs.
A single simple 1 choice standard 98 to 100 octane (R+M/2) pump gas saves costs and costs less.
It is the choice of gasolines that makes it more expensive.

Supply chain simplicity and "economy of scale" of that reduces real costs.

[GARY C]

Adding a water injection system to a new car at the OEM is cost effective and relatively LOW cost.
BMW is already doing it. and the supply chain infrastructure already exists at all gas stations
(windshield washer fluid) (winter formula stuff without any detergent) . its already there
and customers know how to use it. It is also safe to carry a spare in the truck. People already do that. So the added cost on both ends is small.

[Jeff Lee]

From what I read, the new BMW is water (only) injected. The reason there is no meth with the water is that would require EPA approval. That makes sense from a regulatory agency. BMW is advertising a HP increase with the water only system. I’m under the impression there’s a “nod and a wink” going on and BMW knows many will finish the job.
I have a VW 2.0L Turbo which is 11.0:1 compression w/ DI. I have added a larger turbo, aftermarket intake manifold, exhaust, larger inter-cooler, CAI & tune. I have also added a Snow water / meth injection system. It pumps based on a boost curve. Presently I have it coming on at 8# and it’s all in by 18#. Full boost is 21#. Makes a noticeable difference and the engine tune is based on no injection so if I run out, no problem.
I bought this injection not only for performance but to keep the sludge off the valves that DI is famous for.
Fill the tank with 100 octane and oh boy...what a difference that makes.

[user-23911]

Water injection is water.

It's always been water.


This methanol thing is all BS and always has been.


You've all been conned.

Sure, if you want to inject methanol, inject methanol, or a water methanol mix but there's no advantage over just injecting water on it's own.




In WW2, testing was done with an ethanol / water mix.
The addition of alcohol is to prevent freezing at altitude. Nothing more.


As far as 100RON fuel goes.........Japan has had it for years.
Japan has made domestic only models for years, they require 100RON fuel.
If you run them on 98 RON or 95 RON you either get a loss in performance or a blow up.

[Truckedup]

The only reason the retail price of high octane fuel at the pump has a higher retail preice is you are willing to pay more for that fuel. It does not cost any more for the refiner to make..

I might find your statement believable if it were backed up with actual facts showing oil refiner costs for making different grades of fuel..

The key is "different grades" .. It does cost more to have more than 1 grrade octane gas at the pump. But refining a lower octane fuel and a higher octane unleaded street pump gas cost the same for each. The only justifiable cost difference is the need to have more than 1 octane
available. That cost more. If there was only 1 octane and it was a higher octane unleaded
gas as the standard and only available at the pump. It would COST LESS to make, deliver and sell than the choice of low/mid and higher octane pump gas does.
A single standard 100(ron) octane pump gas (94 R+M/2) reduces real costs.
A single simple 1 choice standard 98 to 100 octane (R+M/2) pump gas saves costs and costs less.
It is the choice of gasolines that makes it more expensive.

Supply chain simplicity and "economy of scale" of that reduces real costs.

You still present no facts, just your opinion.. What additives are used to raise the octane of pump gas from 87 to 93 ? Are they more expensive than the base stock?

[MadBill]

According to this article and others, gasoline with octane ratings higher than ~ 90, require additives: https://www.thoughtco.com/gasoline-and- ... iew-602180 One is iso octane, which has a knock rating of (tah da!) 100 R and 100 M.

[Circlotron]

The water is not combusted. it is and remains water the whole time.

Depending on the temperature, some of the water molecules separate back to hydrogens and oxygens. That absorbs a lot of energy. Later when things cool slightly this oxygen and hydrogen burn back together again, giving back the energy that was absorbed as well as making water vapour again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_spl ... n_of_water

[peejay]

The newer gm v8's are direct injected and i believe alot of the smaller passenger 4 and 6 cyl stuff is too, or goin that way.

It would be a fair assumption to make that any engine designed since 2013 or so is direct injected, and quite a few engines designed before that have been retrofitted. Duratec/MZR, and Ecotec, at the front of the ol' memory bank because they are so common.

The new trend is to combined direct injection and port injection, because there are certain operating situations where direct injection has unusually high emissions (NOx and, I think, soot) and port injection is CHEAP and so is computer processing power, so the OEMs are running direct injection with some port injection blended in for the DI high emissions regimes.

We're really at the point emissions-wise where "shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic" is worthwhile.

As a bonus, running dual injection strategy allows them to be able to flow more fuel under the unrestricted WOT power levels, so the direct injection ~70-80hp/cyl limitation can go away. The highest power per cylinder purely DI engine that I'm aware of is the Focus RS at 350hp from a four, and real world testing has that car running about the same drag times as 300hp cars of the same type/weight, so that 350hp may be optimistic.

[DaveMcLain]

BMW already has a turboed car that uses a OEM Water/methanol injection system to allow both higher compression and boost on existing fuel.

Didn't Olds do that in 1962?

Uhh...yes. See my and others' posts starting 12 back...

Yes and I saw that after I posted, sorry about doing that....

Somehow I have serious doubts that you'll ever see 100 octane R/M at the pump but we'll see I guess. I'm not sure that gasoline with that high of a rating was EVER widely available as a street gasoline.

[David Redszus]

According to this article and others, gasoline with octane ratings higher than ~ 90, require additives: https://www.thoughtco.com/gasoline-and- ... iew-602180 One is iso octane, which has a knock rating of (tah da!) 100 R and 100 M.

Actually there are 18 different iso octanes, with octane ratings from 23 to 100. The fuel octane is a result of the final blend of components including olefins, aromatics and oxygenates. The octane numbers (MON, RON) predict how the fuel will perform in a Waukesha Octane Test engine but not how they will perform in a given engine.

[pamotorman]

Didn't Olds do that in 1962?

Uhh...yes. See my and others' posts starting 12 back...

Yes and I saw that after I posted, sorry about doing that....

Somehow I have serious doubts that you'll ever see 100 octane R/M at the pump but we'll see I guess. I'm not sure that gasoline with that high of a rating was EVER widely available as a street gasoline.

Sunoco 260 was 103 octane back in the 60s/70s

[MadBill]

The Sunoco blend pumps in Ontario (and I assume elsewhere) through the sixties and early seventies mixed different proportions of low and very high test* gasoline to arrive at the '200', '220', '240' and '260' product. As you pumped the fuel, you could see the low and high dials moving proportional to the blend being served. For 260, the 'low test' dial still moved, albeit slowly. The pumps had a blank blend/price space above 260 and a few stations, e.g. one West of Ottawa, near the local oval track, had been enabled to display '280' and dispense the pure high octane ingredient, *variously attributed to be 106, 108 or 110 Research.

The blend pumps (or at least the top numbers) vanished in the mid-seventies, soon after I bumped the CR of my Cross-Ram '70 1/2 Z28 daily driver to 12.7:1...

[DaveMcLain]

Uhh...yes. See my and others' posts starting 12 back...

Yes and I saw that after I posted, sorry about doing that....

Somehow I have serious doubts that you'll ever see 100 octane R/M at the pump but we'll see I guess. I'm not sure that gasoline with that high of a rating was EVER widely available as a street gasoline.

Sunoco 260 was 103 octane back in the 60s/70s

103 research octane but not close to that when rated like they do today where motor and research octane are averaged together. As far as I know Sunoco 260 was about the best pump gas ever offered but I doubt it would make 100 octane R/M, but maybe it would...

[F-BIRD'88]

The water is not combusted. it is and remains water the whole time.

Depending on the temperature, some of the water molecules separate back to hydrogens and oxygens. That absorbs a lot of energy. Later when things cool slightly this oxygen and hydrogen burn back together again, giving back the energy that was absorbed as well as making water vapour again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_spl ... n_of_water

This reaction DOES NOT occur in the combustion of a IC engine.
It is not a blast furnace and the temps never get that high.
The water just turns to steam. It never combusts (burns) H2O the whole time
Not even a little bit. Not in a IC engine.