100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

[pamotorman]

I built some SC BBC boat engines with a crude water alky injection but they suffered from top ring groove wear. the people at GM racing told me it was caused by the water alky mixture turning to steam and removing the oil film from the top ring. the new computer controlled systems should not have this problem. remember GM sold some cars with water alky injection so I guess that is where they found the problem.

[F-BIRD'88]

Adding a water injection system to a new car at the OEM is cost effective and relatively LOW cost.
BMW is already doing it. and the supply chain infrastructure already exists at all gas stations
(windshield washer fluid) (winter formula stuff without any detergent) . its already there
and customers know how to use it. It is also safe to carry a spare in the truck. People already do that. So the added cost on both ends is small.

[F-BIRD'88]

I built some SC BBC boat engines with a crude water alky injection but they suffered from top ring groove wear. the people at GM racing told me it was caused by the water alky mixture turning to steam and removing the oil film from the top ring. the new computer controlled systems should not have this problem. remember GM sold some cars with water alky injection so I guess that is where they found the problem.

You were getting the increased bore wear because of the long near constant injection under constant load and the crude nature of the injection.
A OEM system om a car only needs to add the water when needed, when under load
and just enough to stop detonation, without excess.
Much of the total daily driving time there would be no water injection going on.
Added engine bore wear would be minimum over the service life of the engine.
Allows for a smaller CID lighter weight engine but yet with more power and fuel mileage.

Remember water is already a product of combustion and already exists in air (humidity)
A IC engine can tolerate a lot of water. It does already.
But excess water over long event injection would want to be avoided.
Modern high pressure computer controled direct in cylinder injection solves that.
The much higher injection water ( and the fuel) injection pressures used allow much more fine control of needed water (and fuel). Just enough for that moment and no more.
The water injection also reduces NOX emissions in the exhaust. Much like EGR.

[MadBill]

The turbocharged 1962 Oldmobile 215" aluminum Jetfire engine ran 10.25:1 CR and used "Turbo Rocket Fluid" (aka washer fluid) to suppress detonation. I bought the engine from one for $75 after it was run out of fluid and the 'fail-safe' failed to cut off boost...

[pamotorman]

I built some SC BBC boat engines with a crude water alky injection but they suffered from top ring groove wear. the people at GM racing told me it was caused by the water alky mixture turning to steam and removing the oil film from the top ring. the new computer controlled systems should not have this problem. remember GM sold some cars with water alky injection so I guess that is where they found the problem.

You were getting the increased bore wear because of the long near constant injection under constant load and the crude nature of the injection.
A OEM system om a car only needs to add the water when needed, when under load
and just enough to stop detonation, without excess.
Much of the total daily driving time there would be no water injection going on.
Added engine bore wear would be minimum over the service life of the engine.
Allows for a smaller CID lighter weight engine but yet with more power and fuel mileage.

Remember water is already a product of combustion and already exists in air (humidity)
A IC engine can tolerate a lot of water. It does already.
But excess water over long event injection would want to be avoided.
Modern high pressure computer controled direct in cylinder injection solves that.
The much higher injection water ( and the fuel) injection pressures used allow much more fine control of needed water (and fuel). Just enough for that moment and no more.
The water injection also reduces NOX emissions in the exhaust. Much like EGR.

it was on a pressure switch so it came on when the super charger boost pressure came up but it was still not controlled enough to prevent top ring groove wear in the piston from the steam. it was nothing more than a fancy windshield washer system. it kept the tops of the pistons clean.

[F-BIRD'88]

The turbocharged 1962 Oldmobile 215" aluminum Jetfire engine ran 10.25:1 CR and used "Turbo Rocket Fluid" (aka washer fluid) to suppress detonation. I bought the engine from one for $75 after it was run out of fluid and the 'fail-safe' failed to cut off boost...

Yup, the OEM's already know how to do it( and using existing point of sale infrastructure and now they have MUCH better engine management systems.
and "fail safe" back up capability. Back then they did not even have a simple seat belt warning buzzer system yet. Now the car won't drive (without warning the driver at minimum) without the seat belts done up.
Yup the whole problem back in 1962 was people were too lazy to re-fill the water tank.
No computer screen on the dash to warn them or car operation impairment capability to
get compliance. Try driving a new car today without your seat belt on or low tire pressure
or low oil level etc etc...

[F-BIRD'88]

The only reason the retail price of high octane fuel at the pump has a higher retail preice is you are willing to pay more for that fuel. It does not cost any more for the refiner to make.
it actually costs more in refinement and transportation/delivery to have 2 or more octanes at the pump. And fasoline will cost less if only 1 standard ( higher octane) fuel is at the pump. It simplifies the whole production and delivery supply system.

We are being "hosed" bigly on the retail price of higher octane unleaded pump gas now and only because we are willing to pay for it.

[Cougar5.0]

I triggered my H2O/meth based on a pressure switch and an RPM switch in series. Some systems use progressive duty-cycle based injection using MAF voltage. I will adjust the Hobbs switch to turn on the meth near 0 PSI (gauge) in my new N/A 427.

[peejay]

If it does happen how much more compression will tolerated from 91-93. 10-1 to 11.5-1?

Are you talking older engines or newer?

Newer engines might have only 11.5:1 if they are turbocharged.

I've run a 12:1 468 with iron heads on pump 93 no problem. It wasn't in a heavy car though!

[peejay]

The turbocharged 1962 Oldmobile 215" aluminum Jetfire engine ran 10.25:1 CR and used "Turbo Rocket Fluid" (aka washer fluid) to suppress detonation. I bought the engine from one for $75 after it was run out of fluid and the 'fail-safe' failed to cut off boost...

Yup, the OEM's already know how to do it( and using existing point of sale infrastructure and now they have MUCH better engine management systems.
and "fail safe" back up capability. Back then they did not even have a simple seat belt warning buzzer system yet. Now the car won't drive (without warning the driver at minimum) without the seat belts done up.
Yup the whole problem back in 1962 was people were too lazy to re-fill the water tank.
No computer screen on the dash to warn them or car operation impairment capability to
get compliance. Try driving a new car today without your seat belt on or low tire pressure
or low oil level etc etc...

Oh, you can drive your car without your seat belt on or the TPMS light on and so forth.

Go on and try to drive a Diesel with an empty DEF tank. You get a period of warning time, and if you ignore that, the engine won't go over idle.

High octane fuel, water injection, EGR, they all do the same thing as DEF as far as the OEMs are concerned: they reduce NOx emissions.

So if you had to have water injection, of course it couldn't be straight water but a mix of something with anticorrosives and antifreezes, so you'd have to buy it at the store, and entitled (blank)s would whine that their 600hp 35mpg car needs $10 of anti-NOx fluid every few thousand miles...

[F-BIRD'88]

Water injection with full computer EFI control and direct in cylinder injection will be the
new power adder. The "new nitrous"... for hot rodders-racers allowing much higher engine compression ratios and higher boost on unleaded gas.

Formula 1 outlawed water injection in their class rules as the turbo F1 cars with water injection were making SOOO much more engine horsepower, with it.
I believe it was Ferrari that tried it years ago in F1 racing and "walked away" from everyone else
and it was quickly outlawed.
It allows a LOT of Supercharged (and or higher compression ratio) power without detonation and or overheating. The engine actually becomes a Dual- HYBRID powered engine. Internal combustion and also somewhat STEAM powered. The water is not combusted. it is and remains water the whole time. Water does not burn. But steam is powerful.

[Truckedup]

The only reason the retail price of high octane fuel at the pump has a higher retail preice is you are willing to pay more for that fuel. It does not cost any more for the refiner to make..

I might find your statement believable if it were backed up with actual facts showing oil refiner costs for making different grades of fuel..

[Orr89rocz]

The newer gm v8's are direct injected and i believe alot of the smaller passenger 4 and 6 cyl stuff is too, or goin that way. Direct injection can tolerate higher comp ratios on current fuel it seems.

Oem water inj seems like a bad idea because its one more thing to fill up and have to worry about consumers neglecting to fill up the tanks. Its not really needed. Guys are making really good power on these motors today. From ford coyote to gm's ls stuff. I've seen 800 whp on 93 oct on a twin turbo ls3 camaro. I've made 1000 whp thru a th400 on pump gas only with sbc. The oems can design for power without octane or water inj.

For cruise economy however, maybe high comp may better and susceptible to detonation at part load.

[DaveMcLain]

BMW already has a turboed car that uses a OEM Water/methanol injection system to allow both higher compression and boost on existing fuel.

Didn't Olds do that in 1962?

[MadBill]

Almost twenty years back, Saab demonstrated a variable compression ratio engine that ran at up to 14:1 CR under light load, dropping to ~ 8:1 at WOT. There have been other variable CR prototype engines since, although none to my knowledge in production vehicles. Of course the related Miller/Atkinson Cycle has been in use for a number of years.