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100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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F-BIRD'88
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Yes there are a few gas stations in the USA that sell 100 octane unleaded gasoline at the pump.
There are a few stations on the east coast that sell Sunoco GT-100
There are a few Delta Sonic (car wash) stations that sell "CAM2" unleaded race gas
at the pump. One is in Buffalo NY.

50-50 water + methanol injection is more powerfull than jut water as a boost fluid.
The water absorbs a lot of heat but really adds no power. it does not burn.
The methanol does add power and is High octane itself.
When combined the 2 (when used as a anti detonation "boost fluid" on a gasoline powered IC engine) are the most effective OVERALL at intercooling charge cooling,
combustion detonation suppression and power thru the ability to run more turbo/supercharged boost. Especially on a roots blower.
Water alone does absorb more heat when changing state (liquid to steam) but the 2 (water+methanol) combined make more power.
And work better over a wider operational window than water injection alone does.
What works in the real world, matters.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Morgo »

Here in Scandinavia we have a RE 85 (i.e. 85% alcohol) and practically all high boost turbo folks use it.Available on most stations and allows insane boost even in street vehicles.And even cheaper than gas (well,you use more the RE85 than gas but you want performance? and the cheaper price make it about same as gasoline)
David will put out the data of RE 85 I bet 8)
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Truckedup »

MadBill wrote:According to this article and others, gasoline with octane ratings higher than ~ 90, require additives: https://www.thoughtco.com/gasoline-and- ... iew-602180 One is iso octane, which has a knock rating of (tah da!) 100 R and 100 M. :o
The article has decent references.... Right here is why higher octane cost more...
The switch to unleaded gasoline has required the addition of more expensive compounds, such as aromatics and highly branched alkanes, to maintain high octane numbers.
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Thats BS...if it was true that making Unleaded gas cost more than making a high octane leaded
gas cost to MAKE then Leaded racing gas would cost less to make and sell for less.
It does not cost less or sell for less.
The actual cost of the combined components of unleaded gasoline even to get the different current octanes even including the 110 octane RACE gas, the cost of these blended components
in real terms all said an done is at near irrelevent to the price you pay to buy it.
The real cost difference is in the need to SWITCH the blend and switch again, at the refiner and
Ship 3 different blends and have 3 retail pumps that deliver the different octanes. That is the only real COST.
You pay more for the higher octane gas now ONLY *** BECAUSE you will. ***
AGAIN if when the pump gas is changed to single standard 100 R+M/2 octane the price at he pump will not change. And the real costs all in WILL BE LOWER.
The refining cost is simpler and more efficient and the benefit of economy of scale
is much better..But you believe what you want.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by MadBill »

For the refinery, it's far worse than that. Due to climate factors plus varying and completely uncoordinated state laws, they have to produce many dozens of seasonal & location-specific 'boutique' blends, and a temporary shortage of any one can almost never be back-filled with with another, leading to huge refining and transportation inefficiencies.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by JCR »

MadBill wrote:For the refinery, it's far worse than that. Due to climate factors plus varying and completely uncoordinated state laws, they have to produce many dozens of seasonal & location-specific 'boutique' blends, and a temporary shortage of any one can almost never be back-filled with with another, leading to huge refining and transportation inefficiencies.
Yep. https://www.afpm.org/uploadedFiles/Cont ... Map(1).pdf
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

We could always go back to the 70's coal powered Olds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CAN5nO ... 0W-44D1ZWz
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Morgo »

In race gas you pay for the consistent blend.The roadway pump could have widely differing mix of different ingredients (and normal vehicles do not mind)
"when uncomptent order unwilling to do unnecsessary the probablity of failure is high"
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by pdq67 »

I forget if I have already mentioned this here BUT I have posted this on the Boards before in the past!

EXXON Cali has created a 10 x 10 fuel matrix of fuel mixes that meet Cali. Carb spec's and they patented them ALL to keep their competition out!

Think about this for a bit about market control.

Now BTTT..

How much does Triptane cost per gallon and how much if it would be needed to be added to a gallon of either 87 or 89 octane unleaded gasoline to get them up to like 102 or a tad higher in octane?? Then we might be able to go back in time and use 12 to 1+ CR engines!!

Is Triptane up at 135 octane???

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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Cougar5.0 »

A couple of random comments:

1. Most gasoline pumps in the NE are blend pumps. There are 3 grade typically, 87, 91 & 93 - 91 is a blend of the other 2 grades.

2. Expanding a little on what F-BIRD'88 said above; methanol has a lower boiling point (148F vs. 212F) than water - the air charge will give up heat sooner to evaporate methanol versus water, even though the water can ultimately provide greater cooling (higher heat of vaporization), much of it won't vaporize until combustion. So depending if one is looking for maximum air charge temperature reduction, or maximum knock reduction (and there's a limit to how much water can be used before excessive combustion quench occurs), there is likely an "ideal" blend of methanol and water for any given engine combination (N/A vs S/C.)
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Truckedup »

F-BIRD'88 wrote:Thats BS...if it was true that making Unleaded gas cost more than making a high octane leaded
gas cost to MAKE then Leaded racing gas would cost less to make and sell for less.
It does not cost less or sell for less.
Do you have any idea what tetra ethyl lead costs? I use VP C-12 leaded racing fuel in my racing bikes...It's one of VP's lower priced fuel and slightly lower priced than equivalent octane non leaded race fuels . You can look up prices and specs on VP's website...
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Tuner »

F-BIRD'88 wrote:
Circlotron wrote:
F-BIRD'88 wrote:The water is not combusted. it is and remains water the whole time.
Depending on the temperature, some of the water molecules separate back to hydrogens and oxygens. That absorbs a lot of energy. Later when things cool slightly this oxygen and hydrogen burn back together again, giving back the energy that was absorbed as well as making water vapour again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_spl ... n_of_water
This reaction DOES NOT occur in the combustion of a IC engine.
It is not a blast furnace and the temps never get that high.
The water just turns to steam. It never combusts (burns) H2O the whole time
Not even a little bit. Not in a IC engine.
Circlotron is correct

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A86.J73 ... _7sLhxN3M-


In dealing with the combustion of gasoline
which consists of carbon and hydrogen there are eight
reactions which may take place. They are:
(1) 2H2 + 02 = 2 H20
(2) C + 02 = CO2
(3) 2C + O2 = 2 CO
(4) C + CO2 = 2 CO
(s) 2C0 + 02 = 2 CO2
(6) C + H20 = CO + H2
(7) C + 2H2O = CO2 + 2 H2
(8) CO2 + H2 = CO + H2O
Equation (8) is called the water-gas reaction and is reversible, that is, it is capable of reacting from left to right and from right to left depending upon the concentrations
of the constituents.


Read more in the link above to Edward M. Gregory's masters thesis, presented in 1935, only 82 years ago.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

Truckedup wrote:
F-BIRD'88 wrote:Thats BS...if it was true that making Unleaded gas cost more than making a high octane leaded
gas cost to MAKE then Leaded racing gas would cost less to make and sell for less.
It does not cost less or sell for less.
Do you have any idea what tetra ethyl lead costs? I use VP C-12 leaded racing fuel in my racing bikes...It's one of VP's lower priced fuel and slightly lower priced than equivalent octane non leaded race fuels . You can look up prices and specs on VP's website...
FYI, VP Blue is the same fuel as C-12 for less money it's just blue instead of green.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Tuner »

And, as an amazing coincidence, Avgas is blue. Who would have thought? Perhaps only $3.20 gal. at some regional airstrip near you.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

any h20 there or formed during combustion does not
further or reverse react with co or anythibg else in a ic engine during its combustion. it is far too stable

huge amounts of energy is needed to get h2o to react to anything.. even atomic bomb does not react or burn H2o.

equation 8 can only be reversed with a big input
of energy (electricity) Is there a big extension cord on the engine..?
stop dreaming.
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