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100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Tuner
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Tuner »

F-BIRD'88 wrote:any h20 there or formed during combustion does not
further or reverse react with co or anythibg else in a ic engine during its combustion. it is far too stable

huge amounts of energy is needed to get h2o to react to anything.. even atomic bomb does not react or burn H2o.

stop dreaming.
^^^ #-o ^^^

Try a little harder to find somebody who will read to you the master's thesis linked in the post above.

[-o<
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

Tuner wrote:And, as an amazing coincidence, Avgas is blue. Who would have thought? Perhaps only $3.20 gal. at some regional airstrip near you.
I don't know how they compare and would never suggest a fuel that I don't know will handle the needs of a customer running a 700+ horse 420 inch engine on a circle track just because it is blue.

Sunoco turbo blue is, guess what color? It in no way would be recommended in place of c-12.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by user-23911 »

F-BIRD'88 wrote:any h20 there or formed during combustion does not
further or reverse react with co or anythibg else in a ic engine during its combustion. it is far too stable

huge amounts of energy is needed to get h2o to react to anything.. even atomic bomb does not react or burn H2o.

equation 8 can only be reversed with a big input
of energy (electricity) Is there a big extension cord on the engine..?
stop dreaming.

You're wrong.

I can remember covering this at university (organic chemistry) many years ago.
Water is part of the overall combustion process, slows down the overall reaction.
Water reacts with carbon to form CO and H
The H then reacts with O to give H2O which further reacts with C to give CO again.
It's actually a very long and complicated process.


You're also wrong about the methanol part of water injection.

You won't find a dyno test anywhere that shows that a mixture of methanol plus water makes more power on an engine than just adding water on it's own.
Not unless the dyno has been "doctored" or carried out in an unscientific way.

Likewise you won't find a dyno sheet that shows the mass of fuel (petrol? or methanol?) consumed Vs the mass of water consumed vs the mass of methanol (mixed with water)consumed.

But what you CAN find is info from WW2 testing that shows otherwise.




As for the 100RON at the pump.
Just use 98 RON plus water injection.
That's water injection using water.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by numboltz »

FWIW, some quotes from Ricardo's 1954 edition:
Dry steam alone is an effective anti-detonant, but maximum power will be reduced
because of displacement of oxygen and dilution.
Water is more effective than steam as it's latent heat reduces compression temp and increases VE
to an extent that more than compensates for the displacement of oxygen by steam, but much depends
on when, where and to what extent the water is evaporated.
If complete evaporation takes place in the inlet tract or in the cylinder BEFORE the inlet valve closes, then
the full value of water's latent heat will be realized, to both increase VE and suppress detonation.
If evaporation takes place during the compression stroke, it still serves as an effective anti-detonant
but NOT as a power augmenter. [To me, this would argue against direct water injection.]
Any liquid remaining after the compression stroke merely lowers the combustion temp. and so reduces output without any compensating advantage.

There are various advantages and disadvantages to using ethanol or methanol but IIRC the advantages
over pure water are not straightforward, beyond anti-freeze. There is a lot more discussion on that topic
in the book.

So according to Ricardo, water mist should travel through the intake using it's high latent heat to increase density, lower temperatures and arrive in the cylinder just as it's transition to steam takes place for maximum effect before the intake valve closes.

Has anything happened since to change this?
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by user-23911 »

That's exactly the way I see it and I've been using WI since 1982 ish with turbo.
I still use it today but of course with a totally different setup from back then.
Any loss of power can be compensated by the turbo by using more boost.

Fuel burns slower with WI so you need a bit more ignition advance to get the power back.
You also need a much better ignition system otherwise once you inject a decent ratio of water to fuel, it'll start misfiring.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Truckedup »

GARY C wrote: FYI, VP Blue is the same fuel as C-12 for less money it's just blue instead of green.
Which VP "Blue are you talking about? There are about 3 or 4 blues.....The C-12 is the least expensive 108 MON octane leaded fuel...
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by midnightbluS10 »

Truckedup wrote:
Morgo wrote:Just be clear at what Octane.. RON? MON? R/M/2? What standard?
This year the VP of General Motors Propulsion Systems said, “100 RON fuel (about 95 octane in the US) is the right fuel for the 2020-25 timeframe.”
That puts it into much better perspective. Here they'd only be going from 93 to 95. Not a huge jump and definitely nothing to make a huge deal over. Now had it been 100 octane under the US system, that'd have been a different story and I could understand the need for news articles, etc.... But 2 points? Ehhhh....
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by midnightbluS10 »

F-BIRD'88 wrote:Yes there are a few gas stations in the USA that sell 100 octane unleaded gasoline at the pump.
There are a few stations on the east coast that sell Sunoco GT-100
There are a few Delta Sonic (car wash) stations that sell "CAM2" unleaded race gas
at the pump. One is in Buffalo NY.

50-50 water + methanol injection is more powerfull than jut water as a boost fluid.
The water absorbs a lot of heat but really adds no power. it does not burn.
The methanol does add power and is High octane itself.
When combined the 2 (when used as a anti detonation "boost fluid" on a gasoline powered IC engine) are the most effective OVERALL at intercooling charge cooling,
combustion detonation suppression and power thru the ability to run more turbo/supercharged boost. Especially on a roots blower.
Water alone does absorb more heat when changing state (liquid to steam) but the 2 (water+methanol) combined make more power.
And work better over a wider operational window than water injection alone does.
What works in the real world, matters.


100 octane at the pump? How else would they sell it? We have a station right up the road that sells 100 octane from a pump in front of the building. Is that all that's required to be considered "selling 100 octane at the pump"? I don't understand the big deal? Is it usually only available in 55 gallon drums? I guess seeing 100 octane gas available for purchase from a gas pump just isn't that unusual to me. It's been that way as long as I can remember.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Truckedup »

midnightbluS10 wrote:
100 octane at the pump? How else would they sell it? We have a station right up the road that sells 100 octane from a pump in front of the building. Is that all that's required to be considered "selling 100 octane at the pump"? I don't understand the big deal? Is it usually only available in 55 gallon drums? I guess seeing 100 octane gas available for purchase from a gas pump just isn't that unusual to me. It's been that way as long as I can remember.
[/quote]

Where do you live ? And what is the cost of the 100 octane? Around here ,Rochester NY, there's maybe one place selling it that I know of..
Last edited by Truckedup on Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by DaveMcLain »

About 15 years ago we used a unleaded 100 octane fuel in a two barrel circle track application. It was more than adequate octane for the engine and it cost $1 a gallon less than leaded 110 from the same source. You could buy it at the pump at that station as it was a street legal fuel. That was at the original Sieveking location in Fenton MO. At the time leaded 110 was about $3.65 a gallon so this stuff cost about $2.65 a gallon.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

Truckedup wrote:
GARY C wrote: FYI, VP Blue is the same fuel as C-12 for less money it's just blue instead of green.
Which VP "Blue are you talking about? There are about 3 or 4 blues.....The C-12 is the least expensive 108 MON octane leaded fuel...
It is labeled VP Blue, the same fuel without the die and is $30.00 less per drum, it may not be available in all areas and may be why it's not on their site, I know Round Track is not available in all areas. My rep supply's Tx, Ok, Louisiana and I think N Mexico and Arkansas.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Truckedup »

GARY C wrote:
Truckedup wrote:
GARY C wrote: FYI, VP Blue is the same fuel as C-12 for less money it's just blue instead of green.
Which VP "Blue are you talking about? There are about 3 or 4 blues.....The C-12 is the least expensive 108 MON octane leaded fuel...
It is labeled VP Blue, the same fuel without the die and is $30.00 less per drum, it may not be available in all areas and may be why it's not on their site, I know Round Track is not available in all areas. My rep supply's Tx, Ok, Louisiana and I think N Mexico and Arkansas.
You got the Specs on the VP blue? How do I know it's exactly the same as C-12 ???
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Truckedup »

Truckedup wrote:
GARY C wrote:
Truckedup wrote:
Which VP "Blue are you talking about? There are about 3 or 4 blues.....The C-12 is the least expensive 108 MON octane leaded fuel...
It is labeled VP Blue, the same fuel without the die and is $30.00 less per drum, it may not be available in all areas and may be why it's not on their site, I know Round Track is not available in all areas. My rep supply's Tx, Ok, Louisiana and I think N Mexico and Arkansas.
The Blue is 3 bucks less for a 5 gallon can and the only info I found on it is 4 years old....Both my race bikes use about 7 gallons a year for testing and racing so it's not a big expense for me..
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by Cougar5.0 »

Cougar5.0 wrote:...methanol has a lower boiling point (148F vs. 212F) than water - the air charge will give up heat sooner to evaporate methanol versus water, even though the water can ultimately provide greater cooling (higher heat of vaporization), much of it won't vaporize until combustion. So depending if one is looking for maximum air charge temperature reduction, or maximum knock reduction (and there's a limit to how much water can be used before excessive combustion quench occurs), there is likely an "ideal" blend of methanol and water for any given engine combination (N/A vs S/C.)
numbolz wrote:...but much depends
on when, where and to what extent the water is evaporated.
If complete evaporation takes place in the inlet tract or in the cylinder BEFORE the inlet valve closes, then
the full value of water's latent heat will be realized, to both increase VE and suppress detonation.
If evaporation takes place during the compression stroke, it still serves as an effective anti-detonant
but NOT as a power augmenter. [To me, this would argue against direct water injection.]
Any liquid remaining after the compression stroke merely lowers the combustion temp. and so reduces output without any compensating advantage.
H2O/meth/whatever injection cannot be simplified into a "this blend (or just water) works best". The temperature of the air-charge and intake track surfaces, roughness etc. (ability to vaporize whatever liquid blend is injected) is critical (just as it is for the gasoline in the intake tract.) Not just N/A versus supercharged/turbocharged etc., but how much boost, efficiency of compressor, where injection occurs, intercooled or not etc. etc. E85 makes more power partly due to higher octane rating and partly due to how it cools the air-charge. Why would injecting methanol not include the benefits of "alcohol" fuel (lol)? Google "E85 vs methanol"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-1giF7jQfg
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by In-Tech »

joe 90 wrote:
F-BIRD'88 wrote:any h20 there or formed during combustion does not
further or reverse react with co or anythibg else in a ic engine during its combustion. it is far too stable

huge amounts of energy is needed to get h2o to react to anything.. even atomic bomb does not react or burn H2o.

equation 8 can only be reversed with a big input
of energy (electricity) Is there a big extension cord on the engine..?
stop dreaming.

You're wrong.

I can remember covering this at university (organic chemistry) many years ago.
Water is part of the overall combustion process, slows down the overall reaction.
Water reacts with carbon to form CO and H
The H then reacts with O to give H2O which further reacts with C to give CO again.
It's actually a very long and complicated process.


You're also wrong about the methanol part of water injection.

You won't find a dyno test anywhere that shows that a mixture of methanol plus water makes more power on an engine than just adding water on it's own.
Not unless the dyno has been "doctored" or carried out in an unscientific way.

Likewise you won't find a dyno sheet that shows the mass of fuel (petrol? or methanol?) consumed Vs the mass of water consumed vs the mass of methanol (mixed with water)consumed.

But what you CAN find is info from WW2 testing that shows otherwise.




As for the 100RON at the pump.
Just use 98 RON plus water injection.
That's water injection using water.
Tuner and Joe90, it is of no merit to have a conversation with fbird about anything chemical, too much math involved :P

And, fbird, as far as the color of things during combustion... what is the color of nitromethane(98% or whatever) at stoich? Assuming the "fuel" is basically almost 50% oxygen by molecular weight is there a magic color? Is it clear or is it green? :mrgreen: <<<<<Mr green #-o

What does a "tunnel ram" actually do vs. "funnel web"? A funnel web is incredibly fascinating, a tunnel ram is simple and effective in design. An OEM designed funnel web, with little monetary restriction, would be the shiite.
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