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100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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GARY C
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

The Blue is 3 bucks less for a 5 gallon can and the only info I found on it is 4 years old....Both my race bikes use about 7 gallons a year for testing and racing so it's not a big expense for me..
Sorry for bringing it up. I was looking at it from a drum stand point at 8.90 per gallon.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by David Redszus »

How much does Triptane cost per gallon and how much if it would be needed to be added to a gallon of either 87 or 89 octane unleaded gasoline to get them up to like 102 or a tad higher in octane?? Then we might be able to go back in time and use 12 to 1+ CR engines!!

Is Triptane up at 135 octane???
The chemical name for "triptane" is 2,2,3 Trimethylbutane. It has a MON value of 101 compared to 2,2,4 TMP (one of the iso octanes) of 100. But it does have a lower boiling point, 178F compared to 211F for iso octane, which makes it beneficial for high altitude operations.

Triptane would be a very expensive way to raise octane. Much better to use 2,2,4 TMP with lower cost components (such as aromatics and oxygenates) blended with TML or TEL.

Remember that octane is only one of several fuel parameters needed for performance. You cannot win with octane alone.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by midnightbluS10 »

Truckedup wrote:
midnightbluS10 wrote:
100 octane at the pump? How else would they sell it? We have a station right up the road that sells 100 octane from a pump in front of the building. Is that all that's required to be considered "selling 100 octane at the pump"? I don't understand the big deal? Is it usually only available in 55 gallon drums? I guess seeing 100 octane gas available for purchase from a gas pump just isn't that unusual to me. It's been that way as long as I can remember.


Where do you live ? And what is the cost of the 100 octane? Around here ,Rochester NY, there's maybe one place selling it that I know of..

Shreveport, LA. Not sure on cost. I haven't purchased any lately.

I will say that the place that sells it is called Smith Oil Co. They have a few pumps out front with 100LL, kerosene, unleaded race fuel and a couple others, I think. Similar to this but at separate pumps. Plus all the other stuff they sell.


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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

For the folks in the "Water+Meth injection can't provide more power than just water injection" camp, what do you do with the back-to-back-to-back dyno results from the Tuning School showing that water+meth injection produced considerably more power in the same vehicle, on the same dyno with adjustments only in the AFR and timing (vs just water injection)?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... KRMChC0SdN

They test normal 93 octane fuel, 93 octane + Boostane octane booster, VP MS103, VP C9, E85 (well 40% Ethanol anyway), VP C85, VP MS109, VP C16, 93 Octane pump gas+ Water Injection, 93 octan pump gaps +water+meth injection, 93 octane + just meth, & Race fuel + Meth in this series in a C7 Supercharged Vette and the only changes allowed between runs are dialing in the AFR and timing that the fuel wants.


Water, Meth, and Water+Meth and Ethanol showed HUGE gains.

The authors seemed to indicate that you don't really get any perf benefits beyond 40% ethanol- interested in any discussion there, too.

But it sure sounds like E40 is the cheapest and easiest way to get huge perf benefits and detonation resistance if you've got a flexfuel vehicle that can auto-detect the widely varying ethanol content in the high ethanol fuels, no?



I'm not posting this assuming that it "proves" or "refutes" anything; I'm not smart enough to do that, but it does seem to beg the question of why meth and water+meth seemed to generate so much more power than just water if the methol isn't burning and providing more power...


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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

Adam, I could see that on a super charged engine but most test done on a NA engine show little to no gain and sometimes a power lose as long as the proper fuel is used for the engines compression.
Boosted engines love meth and eth due to their cooling properties, I have a cpl of fuel customers that were able to replace the need of Q-16 with E85 once the class they raced in allowed it, on boosted running straight meth you can eliminate the inter cooler thereby reducing weight and boost robbing restrictions and make more power with the same amount of boost.
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David Redszus
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by David Redszus »

Recently, we tested a number of fuels for SAE, including 93 pump gas and E85.

The 93 pump was very inconsistent and accurate technical specs were not available from the supplier.

The E85 was also very inconsistent; the percentage of ethyl alcohol varied as the E85 absorbed water.

In fact, both 93 pump and E85 contained alcohols (not necessarily just ethanol) and both absorbed water.

So, the bottom line is that we often run on water injection; we just don't know how much water and when.

Be very wary of any performance claims made with pump gas; they don't know what they are running.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

David Redszus, you are right on about that.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

GARY C wrote:Adam, I could see that on a super charged engine but most test done on a NA engine show little to no gain and sometimes a power lose as long as the proper fuel is used for the engines compression.
Boosted engines love meth and eth due to their cooling properties, I have a cpl of fuel customers that were able to replace the need of Q-16 with E85 once the class they raced in allowed it, on boosted running straight meth you can eliminate the inter cooler thereby reducing weight and boost robbing restrictions and make more power with the same amount of boost.
Sorry Gary, it sounds like you're saying the power increases that show up on the dyno from a supercharged engine, don't apply to high compression NA engines, but that doesn't make any sense.

The dyno tests I linked to saw many of the high octane fuels resulting in a power loss at pump gas timings and air to fuel rations, but after the AFR and timing was dialed-in the gains started showing up.

Higher Compression engines are generating more cylinder pressure and therefore temperature and should be able to take advantage of the detonation resistance gains from Meth injection -if the super charger is driving increased pressure / temps and therefore sees gain from meth injection, how is that different from higher compression engines that also see increased pressure / temps but from the higher NA compression?


I'm mostly curious WHY the meth and meth+water injection saw more power than just with water injection; is it simply that the evaporation of the meth reduced intake temps and therefore saw more air density, (does this method's addition here simply a result of better cooling due to meth evaporation?) or is the meth actually BURNING and producing more power that way?

If meth / water are both providing additional power purely from cooling effects that fight off detonation and result in a more dense air charge, then does that mean that you would see the power improvement drop off when the meth/water is added later? (If the meth were injected around the throttle body, you'd expect to see more power than if it were injected straight into the intake valve ala port injection?) -Asking the question to understand the mechanism by which water and meth result in a power increase and whether they're identical mechanisms or whether meth brings something else to take table beyond air charge cooling / detonation resistance (although it certainly seems to bring MORE cooling to the table than just pure water via rapid evaporation).


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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

Adam...don't apply to high compression NA engines,
I watched everyone of the videos and you just made a big deal out of something I didn't say!
Gary..most test done on a NA engine show little to no gain and sometimes a power lose as long as the proper fuel is used for the engines compression.
My comment was in reference trying to add additional octane or injecting something to further cool the charge, an NA engine needs heat in the cylinder to produce power to much cooling hurts power, methanol can produce better power in a NA engine if it's the "proper fuel for the application" it is more than likely to hurt power on a lower compression engine.

If you start with the proper fuel then there is no detonation to deal with. If your fuel is not proper for your application then yes a water meth kit would help.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

GARY C wrote:
Adam...don't apply to high compression NA engines,
I watched everyone of the videos and you just made a big deal out of something I didn't say!
Gary..most test done on a NA engine show little to no gain and sometimes a power lose as long as the proper fuel is used for the engines compression.
My comment was in reference trying to add additional octane or injecting something to further cool the charge, an NA engine needs heat in the cylinder to produce power to much cooling hurts power, methanol can produce better power in a NA engine if it's the "proper fuel for the application" it is more than likely to hurt power on a lower compression engine.

If you start with the proper fuel then there is no detonation to deal with. If your fuel is not proper for your application then yes a water meth kit would help.

Yep, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that in a naturally aspirated engine meth+water injection would never make more power than just water injection (in which case it was really apparent either there's something going on that I totally don't understand and I want to understand what that is, or else I misunderstood what you were actually saying- obviously it was the 2nd one.)


Thanks for the clarification; didn't mean to put words in your mouth that you didn't say.


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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

So for all the old guys (mean that in the nice way :D ) on this thread, how confident are you in seeing this 100 octane pump gas by 2020?

Historically when the SAE is giving guidance this clearly and Detroit is spinning up their lobbying efforts like this, is it a foregone conclusion that higher octane gas is coming or 50/50 or a very low probability future, in your opinions?


(If someone is looking to rebuild a motor today or in the next year and they can choose a "Safe" CR and DCR for their piston / cam combo or a slightly aggressive CR / DCR with the expectation that within 3 years they'll have 7 more "points" of octane and a now very safe octane for their CR should they go with the more aggressive CR?) -I wouldn't mind going more aggressive on the CR / DCR and just retarding my cam or adjusting my ignition timing and advancing the cam/ adding more timing as the better gas gets phased in...


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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

NewbVetteGuy wrote:
GARY C wrote:
Adam...don't apply to high compression NA engines,
I watched everyone of the videos and you just made a big deal out of something I didn't say!
Gary..most test done on a NA engine show little to no gain and sometimes a power lose as long as the proper fuel is used for the engines compression.
My comment was in reference trying to add additional octane or injecting something to further cool the charge, an NA engine needs heat in the cylinder to produce power to much cooling hurts power, methanol can produce better power in a NA engine if it's the "proper fuel for the application" it is more than likely to hurt power on a lower compression engine.

If you start with the proper fuel then there is no detonation to deal with. If your fuel is not proper for your application then yes a water meth kit would help.

Yep, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that in a naturally aspirated engine meth+water injection would never make more power than just water injection (in which case it was really apparent either there's something going on that I totally don't understand and I want to understand what that is, or else I misunderstood what you were actually saying- obviously it was the 2nd one.)


Thanks for the clarification; didn't mean to put words in your mouth that you didn't say.


Adam
Think about it this way, when you build an engine you are usually targeting the best power that combo will make so the fuel needed should be factored in before you start the build.
I like the info in the videos but the way they ran the test is kind of misleading, they should have started the test with the best fuel and best tune for the combo and then worked backwards and titled the videos "How much power will you loose with the wrong fuel" because they had to detune the engine to run it on pump 93.
If they had just dumped in fuel and it gained power then you would actually be gaining power from the fuel but really the better fuel just allowed them to properly tune the engine.
Then you go to video twelve and see what the snow system produced with the engine at it's best tune and that's closer to a properly tuned NA engine except that the methanol cools the hot supercharged air so it still is probably not apples to apples.
Then you show the possibility with a snow kit and pump gas..but it's an advertisement for VP fuels so it is presented as the fuel is gaining horse power.
Thats just my critical take on it. :D
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by GARY C »

NewbVetteGuy wrote:So for all the old guys (mean that in the nice way :D ) on this thread, how confident are you in seeing this 100 octane pump gas by 2020?

Historically when the SAE is giving guidance this clearly and Detroit is spinning up their lobbying efforts like this, is it a foregone conclusion that higher octane gas is coming or 50/50 or a very low probability future, in your opinions?


(If someone is looking to rebuild a motor today or in the next year and they can choose a "Safe" CR and DCR for their piston / cam combo or a slightly aggressive CR / DCR with the expectation that within 3 years they'll have 7 more "points" of octane and a now very safe octane for their CR should they go with the more aggressive CR?) -I wouldn't mind going more aggressive on the CR / DCR and just retarding my cam or adjusting my ignition timing and advancing the cam/ adding more timing as the better gas gets phased in...


Adam
My guess would be that any octane boost will be done with more ethanol.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by pamotorman »

GARY C wrote:
NewbVetteGuy wrote:So for all the old guys (mean that in the nice way :D ) on this thread, how confident are you in seeing this 100 octane pump gas by 2020?

Historically when the SAE is giving guidance this clearly and Detroit is spinning up their lobbying efforts like this, is it a foregone conclusion that higher octane gas is coming or 50/50 or a very low probability future, in your opinions?


(If someone is looking to rebuild a motor today or in the next year and they can choose a "Safe" CR and DCR for their piston / cam combo or a slightly aggressive CR / DCR with the expectation that within 3 years they'll have 7 more "points" of octane and a now very safe octane for their CR should they go with the more aggressive CR?) -I wouldn't mind going more aggressive on the CR / DCR and just retarding my cam or adjusting my ignition timing and advancing the cam/ adding more timing as the better gas gets phased in...


Adam
My guess would be that any octane boost will be done with more ethanol.
that would defeat the purpose of obtaining more MPG. removing the ethanol from the gasoline completely would up the MPG.
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Re: 100 Octane Pump Gas by 2020?

Post by MadBill »

Ethanol is a loser for everyone except racers and the Corn Cartels. Among a throng of other drawbacks, many, many millions of cars are built with a lot of premium materials and sophisticated programming to allow up to E85. It buys the manufacturers substantial F.E. credits but there's probably no more than one vehicle in a thousand that's actually burning it. #-o
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