Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

MadBill wrote:Ethanol is a loser for everyone except racers and the Corn Cartels. Among a throng of other drawbacks, many, many millions of cars are built with a lot of premium materials and sophisticated programming to allow up to E85. It buys the manufacturers substantial F.E. credits but there's probably no more than one vehicle in a thousand that's actually burning it.

my silverado is flex fuel meaning it can run E-85 but never tried it. no pumps around here

Bingo! There's ~ 14 million people in Ontario and fewer than a dozen (maybe half?) E85 pumps...

Yeah I am not a fan of E fuels and would be happy to see them go, my understanding is that GM has stopped production of flex fuel on some of their vehicles. I just don't see the politicians getting rid of one of their loved ones after so much has been spent to basically create a complete new (actually old) fuel industry.

Two important questions to ask the auto industry.

What is the purpose of producing a 100 octane pump fuel?
Do we expect to see much smaller engines with high boost forced induction? Do we expect
increased underhood temperatures? Since both TEL and MTBE, the two best octane boosting components
cannot be used, how will fuel consumption be affected by increased use of alcohols?

How do we expect to make 100 octane, given the above limitations, that will survive the
transport and storage process from refinery to end user? Do we expect to see new synthetic
hydrocarbon molecules not yet available? Are the necessary octane booster components readily
available to the fuel industry? Today, high octane fuels cannot pass emission tests without a converter.
Will emission standards be relaxed in pursuit of fuel economy or performance?

David Redszus wrote:Two important questions to ask the auto industry.

What is the purpose of producing a 100 octane pump fuel?
Do we expect to see much smaller engines with high boost forced induction? Do we expect
increased underhood temperatures? Since both TEL and MTBE, the two best octane boosting components
cannot be used, how will fuel consumption be affected by increased use of alcohols?

How do we expect to make 100 octane, given the above limitations, that will survive the
transport and storage process from refinery to end user? Do we expect to see new synthetic
hydrocarbon molecules not yet available? Are the necessary octane booster components readily
available to the fuel industry? Today, high octane fuels cannot pass emission tests without a converter.
Will emission standards be relaxed in pursuit of fuel economy or performance?

VP sells 100 octane unleaded with no metallic compounds.Sunoco 260 GT is probably similar... What do they use to raise octane? Obviously specialty fuel cost is unacceptable for everyday use...

Oxygenated with ethanol, VP100 significantly outperforms premium grade unleaded pump gas. In fact, dyno tests with a turbocharged application proved VP100 generates up to 14% more horsepower compared to premium grade 91 octane unleaded gasoline.
https://vpracingfuels.com/vp-street-legal-fuel/
They also have c-10, c-20, and Vintage 96 octane that are non oxygenated, how they reach higher #'s they don't say but at $10.00 a gallon retail it would get expensive in a daily driver. As a distributor I pay less so I wonder on a nation wide scale what kind of price could they achieve.
https://vpracingfuels.com/product/vp-vintage-unleaded/
https://vpracingfuels.com/product-categ ... e=unleaded

Higher octane may be how the do it...

Of course this "better" fuel will come with a much higher cost to the consumer....all of a sudden these "green" car be it hybrid or all electric look soooo much better at 10, 11, 12,,,, dollars a gallon.

Just make having a gasoline only car painful in the wallet.... sounds like business as usual.

From my years of dealing with VP fuels I would be willing to bet they could bring the best unleaded to the market at less than 3.00 a gallon or less if done on a global scale.

GARY C wrote:From my years of dealing with VP fuels I would be willing to bet they could bring the best unleaded to the market at less than 3.00 a gallon or less if done on a global scale.

Doesn't VP start with price controlled aviation fuel? (they may not find their base stock priced as low once this comes to fruition)

stealth wrote:

GARY C wrote:From my years of dealing with VP fuels I would be willing to bet they could bring the best unleaded to the market at less than 3.00 a gallon or less if done on a global scale.

Doesn't VP start with price controlled aviation fuel? (they may not find their base stock priced as low once this comes to fruition)

I am not sure on that and I probable should have clarified "them bringing it to market" would be the fuel industry as a whole not VP it's self, although they have been bought out be a bigger company as I understand and has started regular gas stations with the VP logo.

VP sells 100 octane unleaded with no metallic compounds. Sunoco 260 GT is probably similar... What do they use to raise octane?

Sunoco uses iso octane, aromatics, and oxygenates to raise fuel octane.

Doesn't VP start with price controlled aviation fuel? (they may not find their base stock priced as low once this comes to fruition)

No, VP does not use "price controlled aviation fuel. Neither does any other AvGas refinery.

From my years of dealing with VP fuels I would be willing to bet they could bring the best unleaded to the market at less than 3.00 a gallon or less if done on a global scale.

Very doubtful. Since VP must purchase fuel blend components from producer refineries, they do not have control over cost or quality or availability of certain components. In addition to very low volume production, a plethora of similar blends, and the high cost of distribution without a pipeline, their product costs are high and difficult to reduce. The oil industry must rely on massive scale at the supply end, refining and processing, as well as distribution and storage.

Good high octane fuels deteriorate very quickly and are difficult to keep fresh and un-contaminated.

There are a number of race fuel companies that offer higher octane street legal gasolines, Renegade being one of them with their HR 102 and ethanol free P-97.

GARY C wrote:

Tuner wrote:And, as an amazing coincidence, Avgas is blue. Who would have thought? Perhaps only $3.20 gal. at some regional airstrip near you.

I don't know how they compare and would never suggest a fuel that I don't know will handle the needs of a customer running a 700+ horse 420 inch engine on a circle track just because it is blue.

Sunoco turbo blue is, guess what color? It in no way would be recommended in place of c-12.

They don't compare. Some people mistakenly think that "110 " race fuel and av gas are the same thing because the color is similar. In fact, if you compare the specs for both, you'll see there is virtually no similarity in the two. But if your application only requires av gas, and you can find a way to purchase it legally for use other than aviation, it's a lower cost option.

Possibly along the 100 octane line.
"So, since the vast majority of new vehicles on the road will still run on gasoline or diesel, automakers are making customized, more fuel-efficient engines that will require the right gas to match. The gasoline ExxonMobil engineers are developing today, therefore, is being adapted to fit the needs of the turbocharged engine in the future."
https://energyfactor.exxonmobil.com/sci ... content=ap

David Redszus wrote:

VP sells 100 octane unleaded with no metallic compounds. Sunoco 260 GT is probably similar... What do they use to raise octane?

Sunoco uses iso octane, aromatics, and oxygenates to raise fuel octane.

Doesn't VP start with price controlled aviation fuel? (they may not find their base stock priced as low once this comes to fruition)

No, VP does not use "price controlled aviation fuel. Neither does any other AvGas refinery.

From my years of dealing with VP fuels I would be willing to bet they could bring the best unleaded to the market at less than 3.00 a gallon or less if done on a global scale.

Very doubtful. Since VP must purchase fuel blend components from producer refineries, they do not have control over cost or quality or availability of certain components. In addition to very low volume production, a plethora of similar blends, and the high cost of distribution without a pipeline, their product costs are high and difficult to reduce. The oil industry must rely on massive scale at the supply end, refining and processing, as well as distribution and storage.

Good high octane fuels deteriorate very quickly and are difficult to keep fresh and un-contaminated.

I have always thought that a "race fuel" would stay fresh longer than pump gas, is it the octane portion of high octane fuels that deteriorate first or is it just the whole blend of the fuel that ages? How quick does this aging process happen if you limit the heat, light and outside air that the fuel is exposed to?

Thanks Henry @ oles carb