Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:02 pm Pushrods, rockers, blower rotors , pistons, aswell as carbon ceramic flywheel.
How stiff can a carbon fiber item be made? Thinking pushrods and rockers for big SR cam etc.?

Typically the elastic modulus of the carbon compositec is Anywhere between aluminium and steel depending on fibre orientation and percentage that is fiber and percentage epoxy. It varies a lot

digger wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:00 pm

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:02 pm Pushrods, rockers, blower rotors , pistons, aswell as carbon ceramic flywheel.
How stiff can a carbon fiber item be made? Thinking pushrods and rockers for big SR cam etc.?

Typically the elastic modulus of the carbon compositec is Anywhere between aluminium and steel depending on fibre orientation and percentage that is fiber and percentage epoxy. It varies a lot

Id guess that different epoxies would give a different result? I really know very little about CF.

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:18 pm

digger wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:00 pm

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:02 pm Pushrods, rockers, blower rotors , pistons, aswell as carbon ceramic flywheel.
How stiff can a carbon fiber item be made? Thinking pushrods and rockers for big SR cam etc.?

Typically the elastic modulus of the carbon compositec is Anywhere between aluminium and steel depending on fibre orientation and percentage that is fiber and percentage epoxy. It varies a lot

Id guess that different epoxies would give a different result? I really know very little about CF.

Yes particularly as a function of temp, also there are different fibers as well.

digger wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:24 pm

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:18 pm

digger wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:00 pm

Typically the elastic modulus of the carbon compositec is Anywhere between aluminium and steel depending on fibre orientation and percentage that is fiber and percentage epoxy. It varies a lot

Id guess that different epoxies would give a different result? I really know very little about CF.

Yes particularly as a function of temp, also there are different fibers as well.

Ok cool, as said i really know squat about CF, its strong and light thats it really, none of the techy stuff.
So its definitely feasible to use as a piston?
Could we see full CF rotating kits one day, possibly blocks, heads etc?

I think what everyone here is looking at is another Silverback carb.

Racing68 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:54 pm I think what everyone here is looking at is another Silverback carb.

No this just spurred me to think more about CF possible uses and seek some info.

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:53 pm

digger wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:24 pm

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:18 pm

Id guess that different epoxies would give a different result? I really know very little about CF.

Yes particularly as a function of temp, also there are different fibers as well.

Ok cool, as said i really know squat about CF, its strong and light thats it really, none of the techy stuff.
So its definitely feasible to use as a piston?
Could we see full CF rotating kits one day, possibly blocks, heads etc?

Its mature technology. If it was feasible F1 would have made those components long ago and their use would be trickling down. Meanwhile incremental improvements in traditional materials continues.

Momus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:44 am

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:53 pm

digger wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:24 pm

Yes particularly as a function of temp, also there are different fibers as well.

Ok cool, as said i really know squat about CF, its strong and light thats it really, none of the techy stuff.
So its definitely feasible to use as a piston?
Could we see full CF rotating kits one day, possibly blocks, heads etc?

Its mature technology. If it was feasible F1 would have made those components long ago and their use would be trickling down. Meanwhile incremental improvements in traditional materials continues.

I suspect if rules allowed it they would have

digger wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:49 am

Momus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:44 am

cjperformance wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:53 pm

Ok cool, as said i really know squat about CF, its strong and light thats it really, none of the techy stuff.
So its definitely feasible to use as a piston?
Could we see full CF rotating kits one day, possibly blocks, heads etc?

Its mature technology. If it was feasible F1 would have made those components long ago and their use would be trickling down. Meanwhile incremental improvements in traditional materials continues.

I suspect if rules allowed it they would have

I see merit in both of those answers!

At 18K a set, I suspect someone might try and justify the price point.

Nefario wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:58 pm Awful lot of square corners there for a composite part.... A bit of background research reads like the founder has been a successful entrepreneur in dental technology and as they raise funding they plan to hire or contract the appropriate talent to actually develop specific parts.

https://www.crowdfunder.com/user/193368

That's just an employee. Arthur Warfield is the founder, I thought. Athur Warfield is also the AW in AWA Composites. At least that's how I understood it.

Racing68 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:54 pm I think what everyone here is looking at is another Silverback carb.

And what about all of those other parts? Silverback carbs, too? The pistons are called a carbon composite. Possibly 3d printed using an additive process? Advancement in 3d printed parts seems to be coming along quite nicely. I came across a company doing carbon something 3d printing a while back.

According to their website, some of their projects include things on the Lockheed Martin F35 Lightning II. If they've got the talents to gain the respect of their peer group in aviation, wouldn't that give them at least 1 leg to stand on and not just automatically assume whatever they produce is no good?

Reading about Lamborghini's upcoming carbon fiber rods, it doesn't seem that far fetched that this place could be using a similar technique to produce a forged composite rod. It(forged composites) does seem to be one of the things they do.

midnightbluS10 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:35 am

Racing68 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:54 pm I think what everyone here is looking at is another Silverback carb.

And what about all of those other parts? Silverback carbs, too? The pistons are called a carbon composite. Possibly 3d printed using an additive process? Advancement in 3d printed parts seems to be coming along quite nicely. I came across a company doing carbon something 3d printing a while back.

Carbon composites like brake rotors start out as carbon fiber, but they get baked at ultrahigh temperatures to alter the materials property further. You end up with a kind of solid brick of carbon that still has a "grain structure" in it. (Very loose description of the process - I'd only read about it a couple times)

midnightbluS10 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:35 am
Advancement in 3d printed parts seems to be coming along quite nicely. I came across a company doing carbon something 3d printing a while back.

There is a printer company called carbon 3d, but they don't actually print with carbon material....its a light cure technology but it's much faster because they claim its continuous vs layered. The truth is the build platform does move continuously but the the cure is a series of projected images like standard DLP (digital light processing). A HUGE problem with most printers is the the material properties in the x-y plane (on the build platform) are much better than in the z(build motion direction) but the carbon machine gets you almost as good in the z....about 80-90% as good.

Warping is also a problem with all printers, shrinkage happens during polymerization and can be accounted for but the internal stress are much harder to handle and cause dimensional issues.

The other problem with these liquid bath or inkjet type printers is they are very limited on particle size within the liquid....so CF fibers in the part are out of the question, at least with current technology.

Short version is don't hold your breathe waiting for printed CF connecting rods