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429 sbc ls build

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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af2
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by af2 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:21 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:02 pm
Don't envy the time and challenge you will face trying to get that GM ecm to control that beast of an LSX-7 you will be dropping in but I am sure you will not be the first or the last to try and make it work. You could make contact with some of the people at EFI University and DIY-, HPtuners or EFI live and see if they can give you some thoughts and experiences. No sense forging ahead alone.

That is a pretty cool looking drive by wire throttle control motor/set-up on CID -efi intake.
That intake will get you to the power levels you are looking for.

How is the idle control going to be managed and configured? Is the drive by wire motor also the GM drive/idle motor from a factory throttle body?

Pretty obvious though that that hood is gonna have the mumps with some bumps to fit that high rise setup under that hood!

Not sure that air cleaner shown will flow the CFMs that engine will want at 800+Hp. I guess a run on the dyno with your carb setup will make that determination.

Now it's pretty obvious that GM realized it was easier to get upwards towards those levels of power with the supercharger versus trying to do it with NA, and yes it fit under the hood!
Can you give an O crap as in who cares about the stock z06? Man I have never seen someone so involved with what will clear a hood in my 55 years!
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by af2 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:25 pm

slo-svt wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:14 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:48 am
slo-svt wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:43 pm


Lets just forget its going in a z06. The engine is going on the engine dyno so what it fits in is irrelevant at this point. The original post stated I plan to test an msd intake, holley sniper, stock ls7 with factory controller. I also plan on purchasing a CID 4.0 manifold. The CID intake will likely run with a Carburetor and standalone ignition controller. This is mainly because I don't plan eat up an entire day (or week) trying to tune it with a drive by wire throttle body rigged to move a 4500 series throttle body. I already know its going to be a nightmare and don't intend to waste Joes time doing it on his engine dyno. The only person I can find with the same type of throttle/intake using a factory computer claims to have 60hrs in tuning it.
If I understand correctly, you already know this, but if you want to make the CID manifold work with 4500 EFI, it is going to be a lot easier with something like an AEM box.
That combo would be in a completely different class than the other manifolds listed power wise.
Your likely not wrong about the standalone being easier but unfortunately that’s not in the budget. I believe I can make the stock computer work it will just take some time. There is a couple cars running with similar dbw combos. Here is a couple photos similar to what I have in mind
You are giving up the dumb drive by wire?

Looks awesome can't wait to see the progression.
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by slo-svt » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:45 pm

af2 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:25 pm
slo-svt wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:14 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:48 am


If I understand correctly, you already know this, but if you want to make the CID manifold work with 4500 EFI, it is going to be a lot easier with something like an AEM box.
That combo would be in a completely different class than the other manifolds listed power wise.
Your likely not wrong about the standalone being easier but unfortunately that’s not in the budget. I believe I can make the stock computer work it will just take some time. There is a couple cars running with similar dbw combos. Here is a couple photos similar to what I have in mind
You are giving up the dumb drive by wire?

Looks awesome can't wait to see the progression.

To my knowledge its not possible to delete the drive by wire on an e38 controller. That is the main reason the standalone ecm like Schmidt mentioned would be so much easier. If you look at the picture i posted you can see they cut up a dbw throttle body and hooked the throttle shaft to a link bar that attaches to the 4500 series mechanical throttle body. The issue with tuning is going to trying to make the tac module portion of the controller happy. I suspect I am going to spend a lot of hours beating my head against a wall with my car in reduced engine power #-o
"I believe in the scientific method and one should have a healthy skepticism of things in general. From a scientific standpoint, you always look at thing probabilistically and not definitively."

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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by af2 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:55 pm

slo-svt wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:45 pm
af2 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:25 pm
slo-svt wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:14 pm


Your likely not wrong about the standalone being easier but unfortunately that’s not in the budget. I believe I can make the stock computer work it will just take some time. There is a couple cars running with similar dbw combos. Here is a couple photos similar to what I have in mind
You are giving up the dumb drive by wire?

Looks awesome can't wait to see the progression.

To my knowledge its not possible to delete the drive by wire on an e38 controller. That is the main reason the standalone ecm like Schmidt mentioned would be so much easier. If you look at the picture i posted you can see they cut up a dbw throttle body and hooked the throttle shaft to a link bar that attaches to the 4500 series mechanical throttle body. The issue with tuning is going to trying to make the tac module portion of the controller happy. I suspect I am going to spend a lot of hours beating my head against a wall with my car in reduced engine power #-o
There is a guy on here name Carl user name is In-Tech that would be a good one to get a hold of.
GURU is only a name.
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by randy331 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:59 pm

slo-svt wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:45 pm
I suspect I am going to spend a lot of hours beating my head against a wall with my car in reduced engine power #-o
Unless you ditch that "Stock Z06 Hood" the reduced power will plague you forever!!!

I don't understand why you insist on using something that has been so clearly shown to STOP you from achieving your goals !!!

If you don't believe me just ask Newold !!!

:D

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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by Newold1 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:56 am

Wow! I've got more bumps on my head in this post than that Z06 will ever have !! :lol:
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by steve316 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:51 am

at least you're not letting those bumps bother you :)

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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by Newold1 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:30 am

YEP! My old hide is gettin pretty tough after all those bites!

I'll just let these younger Whipper Snappers chew each other up! HA! :lol:

I am just going to fall back asleep in my old rocker new! :wink:
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by In-Tech » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:25 am

af2 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:55 pm
slo-svt wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:45 pm
af2 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:25 pm


You are giving up the dumb drive by wire?

Looks awesome can't wait to see the progression.

To my knowledge its not possible to delete the drive by wire on an e38 controller. That is the main reason the standalone ecm like Schmidt mentioned would be so much easier. If you look at the picture i posted you can see they cut up a dbw throttle body and hooked the throttle shaft to a link bar that attaches to the 4500 series mechanical throttle body. The issue with tuning is going to trying to make the tac module portion of the controller happy. I suspect I am going to spend a lot of hours beating my head against a wall with my car in reduced engine power #-o
There is a guy on here name Carl user name is In-Tech that would be a good one to get a hold of.
Adam, thanks for the vote of confidence. I've not done it but I doubt it would be a problem going back to drive by cable, the only issue I see is I am not sure that the E38 has the components on the circuit board to drive an IAC valve. I'll rig one up on the bench after Tday and punch around a bit. :wink: I assume this is a stick car so it may not matter so much.
Heat is energy, energy is horsepower...but you gotta control the heat.
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by slo-svt » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:37 am

In-Tech wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:25 am
af2 wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:55 pm
slo-svt wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:45 pm

To my knowledge its not possible to delete the drive by wire on an e38 controller. That is the main reason the standalone ecm like Schmidt mentioned would be so much easier. If you look at the picture i posted you can see they cut up a dbw throttle body and hooked the throttle shaft to a link bar that attaches to the 4500 series mechanical throttle body. The issue with tuning is going to trying to make the tac module portion of the controller happy. I suspect I am going to spend a lot of hours beating my head against a wall with my car in reduced engine power #-o
There is a guy on here name Carl user name is In-Tech that would be a good one to get a hold of.
Adam, thanks for the vote of confidence. I've not done it but I doubt it would be a problem going back to drive by cable, the only issue I see is I am not sure that the E38 has the components on the circuit board to drive an IAC valve. I'll rig one up on the bench after Tday and punch around a bit. :wink: I assume this is a stick car so it may not matter so much.
How would you go about satisfying the tac module? If it doesn't see an input from pedal and throttle body it goes into reduced engine power. The e38 doesn't have a master enable switch like the later gen 3 computers (such as c5 corvettes and 03+ trucks). I had considered changing to an older controller but I would have to change reluctor wheel on crank in addition to re wiring the harness. Then after all that I am not sure i could get the cluster to work because gen 4 computers communicate on CAN network and 3 uses class 2.
"I believe in the scientific method and one should have a healthy skepticism of things in general. From a scientific standpoint, you always look at thing probabilistically and not definitively."

Elon Musk

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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by CGT » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:49 am

Have you given any more thought to what your going to do valve event wise? The lobe series that Billy emailed you are interesting, and it seems to be an advantage for sure that they've had so much spintron time on them using a lot of the components you will be using.

I like:
Lobe#23704 Intake
Lobe#23820 or 23818 Exhaust

112-114°ish LSA......Just nut-up and do it already.....you can't be scared your whole life! [-X :roll: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by Newold1 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:04 pm

You can get the Nick Williams 102 mm DBW throttle body and cut and adaptor to fit that CID intake and the factory E38 ecm program should operate it just fine. The IAC program will need some tweeking to get a useable idle and that may need to be in the 850-950 rpm range to work with the camshaft you will need to get that engine up to your power levels. The MAP files and decel will be challenges also.Keep the LSA as wide as you can to still make your power and rpms but allow the beast to idle. Just a suggestion. :wink:
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by Rowdy Yates » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:26 pm

Yeah 800 is definitely there with those Cam spec's CGT. 4500 or larger TB, the 102mm TB will leave something on the table. Drive by wire HP killer. It would be wonderful if the e38 could work drive by cable. One wish I have left. Lot better than the 411ecm. The Low profile sniper does pretty well with Rpm 8k+ considering the cost. Placing a 105mm on the Sniper intake is a idea if it's low enough. If a stock Ls7 intake can fit a a 105mm TB why not the Sniper.

Cdubbzz 434 with less compression Cam spec's are very, close, Mr Straub doesn't want the spec's listed. They took the build off of Ls1Tech. Straub & Ls1tech have some differences.
https://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/show ... ?t=2536311

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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by Newold1 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:52 pm

I personally think the Holley cast Hi-Ram COPO with the proper length runner base thats ported and modded for LS7 heads and a 102mm DBW throttle body can get you to 800 and the fitment in the vette won't be as big a problem. Holley has a cast carb top for the same manifold and they can be switched for dyno work and not spend extra dollars on multiple manifolds. Just another idea.
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Re: 429 sbc ls build

Post by slo-svt » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:32 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:52 pm
I personally think the Holley cast Hi-Ram COPO with the proper length runner base thats ported and modded for LS7 heads and a 102mm DBW throttle body can get you to 800 and the fitment in the vette won't be as big a problem. Holley has a cast carb top for the same manifold and they can be switched for dyno work and not spend extra dollars on multiple manifolds. Just another idea.
The high ram not only requires cutting of the wiper cowl/ body. It's very tall in the front and you typically have to cut the cowl in addition to the wiper cowl. I'm not interesting in doing either.
Newold1 wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:04 pm
You can get the Nick Williams 102 mm DBW throttle body and cut and adaptor to fit that CID intake and the factory E38 ecm program should operate it just fine. The IAC program will need some tweeking to get a useable idle and that may need to be in the 850-950 rpm range to work with the camshaft you will need to get that engine up to your power levels. The MAP files and decel will be challenges also.Keep the LSA as wide as you can to still make your power and rpms but allow the beast to idle. Just a suggestion. :wink:
I don't even know what to respond to this.... I'm guessing you have zero experience with the e38 controllers based on this post... I would also love to see a camshaft with 50 degree of overlap at .050 idle at 850 rpm.....
"I believe in the scientific method and one should have a healthy skepticism of things in general. From a scientific standpoint, you always look at thing probabilistically and not definitively."

Elon Musk

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