LS flat plane crank for street use?

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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

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LoganD wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:22 pm Can you even get a GT350 with an automatic?
Well I knew you couldn't initially, but I think I may have gotten spun by your BMW example.
FC-Pilot wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:06 pm The issues I am familiar with were in testing where we were hard on everything any time we touched the track. I do not know what they might be seeing in normal street use. They/we went through a good number of engines in testing. Much more than the former GT500 engine platform. They had a few 90* crank engine that they kept around when they were low on engines. They never had issues with them.
Do you think the 180° crank was worth any power then? I mean its not the only thing different from the coyote in that engine, just curious. Would output be the same with the 90° crank?
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

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MadBill wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:15 pm I read a quote by a Pro Stock crew chief that tried a flat crank ~ 15 years back along the lines of: "It didn't make any more power and it vibrated so bad the tach looked the size of a dinner plate." :-k
You'd have to make quite a few changes to the setup of a very highly developed race engine to truly take advantage of the flat crankshaft configuration. One of the biggest advantages is that you can package an evenly balanced exhaust system in a vehicle much more easily, and this makes exhaust "tuning" much more realistic. If you just bolt in a flat plane crank and go, you won't see any power gain.
CGT wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:20 pmDo you think the 180° crank was worth any power then? I mean its not the only thing different from the coyote in that engine, just curious. Would output be the same with the 90° crank?
I do not think it was worth anything in this particular application because catalyst light off concerns prevent you from having a "tuned" exhaust to take advantage of the firing order, and the reduced crankshaft mass was completely negated by the giant dual mass flywheel they had to run. Personally, I think the new 2018+ DI Coyote has more potential than the Voodoo but Ford deliberately hobbled it so it didn't infringe on the GT350 too much. I wouldn't be surprised if in 2020 or 2021 they announce an updated version of the DI Coyote with over 500 hp.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by FC-Pilot »

I am not going to try and say if more or less power was available with one crank over the other. I never got to drive one of the 90* engines and they were built very early anyway so they did not make the power of the more developed engines anyway. Also as far as internal details of the engines go I did not know too much. I worked near and with the engineeres and techs who were the boots on the ground doing chassis tuning and maintenance. I was close enough to hear details as to what the cause of many of the engine failures was, but that was always diagnosed back in MI. I was based at the Arizona proving grounds so things were a little removed from us.

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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

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LoganD wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:33 pm...You'd have to make quite a few changes to the setup of a very highly developed race engine to truly take advantage of the flat crankshaft configuration. One of the biggest advantages is that you can package an evenly balanced exhaust system in a vehicle much more easily, and this makes exhaust "tuning" much more realistic. If you just bolt in a flat plane crank and go, you won't see any power gain....
I think it's safe to assume a top level Pro Stock team's testing would include more than just 'swap the crank and go'.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

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MadBill wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:19 pm
LoganD wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:33 pm...You'd have to make quite a few changes to the setup of a very highly developed race engine to truly take advantage of the flat crankshaft configuration. One of the biggest advantages is that you can package an evenly balanced exhaust system in a vehicle much more easily, and this makes exhaust "tuning" much more realistic. If you just bolt in a flat plane crank and go, you won't see any power gain....
I think it's safe to assume a top level Pro Stock team's testing would include more than just 'swap the crank and go'.
It'd take some serious development time to get the engine as refined as the cross plane setup. You'd need a year of development at least. I highly doubt they spent a year of development on it.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by MadBill »

I think it's dubious that spending a year working to optimize a flat crank engine would yield a better result than expending the same effort to further develop their cross plane units.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by pamotorman »

back in the flat head ford days 180 degree cranks were used to fire 2 cylinders at one time for more torque
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by pamotorman »

back in the flat head ford days 180 degree cranks were used to fire 2 cylinders at one time for more torque
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by CamKing »

My dad ran 180 cranks in IndyCar in the 70's.
The only issue is balancing them. He ran a short stroke, so balancing wasn't an issue.
The advantages of the 180 crank, are that your std headers become 180 headers, with 4 evenly spaced pulses to the collector.
The other advantage is, you are no longer firing 2 adjacent cylinders, back to back. With a 90 degree crank, you're either firing 5 & 7(Chevy numbering), back to back. or 4 &2, or 3 & 1. With a common plenum manifold, this is a big advantage.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by PackardV8 »

pamotorman wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:43 am back in the flat head ford days 180 degree cranks were used to fire 2 cylinders at one time for more torque
This racing legend has been around since the Winfield Model T days,
a Model T engine has only two intake ports. By making a crank shaft that has two in front aligned and two in the rear aligned, it makes the engine a four port and so lets you have one fire. then three, then two and then four. Any firing order can be used but the efficiency is improved by evening out the power pulses rather than one two, four, three. That system makes you get the front two in line while the back ones do nothing. The air must first go twice to the front and then twice to the rear as if it was controlled by traffic lights. The two up two down is more efficient because it alternates the firing into equal distribution. Ed Winfield also tuned the intake manifold runners so that the air pulses did not overlap or interfere with one another. it allows the efficient use of a much more "aggressive" camshaft ( much longer duration
but it's still wrong. The best version of it I ever heard was, "But the flat crank won't work in a Chevy; stroke is too short. That long stroke makes the torque."

As Mike says, any advantage of the flat crank has always been better intake and exhaust tuning. If there is more torque produced, better breathing is the cause; not the stroke or the firing order.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

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Speaking of firing 2 cylinders at once. Back in the late 80's, one of the Indy engine builders had us make cams for the Buick V6 turbo engine, to fire 2 cylinders at once. I knew it wouln't work, and it didn't. They had the money, and tried all kinds of things. They also figured the roller lifters were costing them HP, so they had us design a flat tappet cam, with the same valve lift curve as the roller cam.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

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That thing has been for sale for a while. Oddly enough, it was listed in Sep 2018 with 66k miles. BaT listing says 65k. Not a huge difference but a difference nonetheless. Possibly a typo or it could be at that 65.7-65.9k miles and was listed as 65k once and 66k another time.


https://www.corvetteonline.com/news/you ... -corvette/

Corvetteonline.com called it the world's first flatplane crank'd Corvette but I don't know how accurate that is.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

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Damn cool car. Silly and impractical and probably a vibrating rattle trap. But cool.
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by makin chips »

Wow. Apparently Lingenfelter did one with a crank from Winberg all the way back in 2011. 358ci Flat plane LSX

Here's a vid of Lingenfelter's LSX on the dyno from 2011. Tuned NA before fitting the turbo.


http://www.lingenfelter.com/forum_linge ... ane-action


https://youtu.be/HIxngbwE8jg

Making well over 1000hp

https://youtu.be/tbEUwiprYC0

8.31@169 in a 5th gen Camaro in 2012. So that other car being the "world's first corvette with a flat plane LS" is just a technicality. Lingenfelter could've just, as easily put their engine in one even back then.

https://youtu.be/5SHRPOo31Xg
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Re: LS flat plane crank for street use?

Post by pamotorman »

someone ran a 180 flat crank BBC modified but it kept cracking the oil pan and the vibration put the drivers hands to sleep
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