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Plenum,2925?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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swampbuggy
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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by swampbuggy » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:49 pm

Question for Jon @ Schmidt Motor Works. I can see reading this topic that you worked for Edelbrock, my question to you is when people grind inside the plenum area and make quite a bit of change, mostly between the carb pad area to the roof/ceiling area of the manifold runner is this ALWAYS the correct thing to do ? Or maybe i should ask, is there more metal in that area so professionals such as.........can shape that area as they wish ? Thanks in advance for your response !! Mark H. :)

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by BradH » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:51 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:42 pm
BradH wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:14 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:44 am
...
I gained 35 HP on 550hp engine with a geometric property that I never have never seen discussed in a forum or book.
...
Well, here's your chance!

Oh, let me guess... there's an NDA, right?
Of course there is, they spent a lot of money for me to do the research. They own it.
Then why even bring it up, if you can't/won't discuss it? It adds nothing to the discussion, other than now we know that you know something apparently nobody else does.
One big happy PITA to everyone who knows me! :lol:

SchmidtMotorWorks
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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:54 pm

digger wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:21 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:44 am
JoePorting wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:10 pm
That's so far up stream I couldn't imagine it making too much difference.
Upstream Is WHY it makes a difference.

A lot of the things that optimize a manifold are not part of the conventional discussion of CSA and flow numbers etc.

I gained 35 HP on 550hp engine with a geometric property that I never have never seen discussed in a forum or book.

A dyno room with emotional people chasing power curves and cheering about gains would NEVER find it.

And a flow bench test would not find it.
Jon,

If we ignore wetflow for a second.
Are you seeing anything in testing that you won't capture in 1D. Ie if you optimise trapped mass via area and area change and length to capture the pressure waves for maxim fill in the rpm of interest?
Naturally there will be 3D effects with bends and so forth but I deal with stuff that has a nice straight shot I.e. IR fuel injected where you can see the spark plug through entry.
In the current market the only manifolds that matter from a business perspective are forward opening EFI manifolds for late model cars.
The OEM stuff is so well optimized that 20 HP is a huge accomplishment.
You won't get in the ballpark without 1D to get a starting point and look for plenum problems.
Then you need to do transient 3D CFD based on stipulated 1D data. The key ring there is getting good animations and spending many ours examining them.
Frankly it is just hard work. Like looking for needles in a moving haystack.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

SchmidtMotorWorks
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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:03 pm

BradH wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:51 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:42 pm
BradH wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:14 pm

Well, here's your chance!

Oh, let me guess... there's an NDA, right?
Of course there is, they spent a lot of money for me to do the research. They own it.
Then why even bring it up, if you can't/won't discuss it? It adds nothing to the discussion, other than now we know that you know something apparently nobody else does.
Because knowing that there are properties worth looking for that few know about, is valuable in and of itself.
If I could have known in advance of spending the money I did to find it that there was something to be found or if I had solid reason to know there was no hope I could have made decision accordingly.
At the time, if it were not possible to find that gain, the project would have been canceled. It was slightly below a competitive manifold.
Lots of information is valuable even if it isn't what you want.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

SchmidtMotorWorks
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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:07 pm

swampbuggy wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:49 pm
Question for Jon @ Schmidt Motor Works. I can see reading this topic that you worked for Edelbrock, my question to you is when people grind inside the plenum area and make quite a bit of change, mostly between the carb pad area to the roof/ceiling area of the manifold runner is this ALWAYS the correct thing to do ? Or maybe i should ask, is there more metal in that area so professionals such as.........can shape that area as they wish ? Thanks in advance for your response !! Mark H. :)
There is a lot of conflicting design data on single plane manifolds.
These extendedrunners and eyebrows look like they would cause problems. But done right they work sometimes, but sometimes not.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by FC-Pilot » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:18 pm

BradH wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:51 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:42 pm
BradH wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:14 pm

Well, here's your chance!

Oh, let me guess... there's an NDA, right?
Of course there is, they spent a lot of money for me to do the research. They own it.
Then why even bring it up, if you can't/won't discuss it? It adds nothing to the discussion, other than now we know that you know something apparently nobody else does.
I am ok with someone telling me I am mining for gold in the wrong place, even if they can’t tell me where it is. In my work I can’t share all the things I see and learn so I get it, but I can share “what we didn’t learn” to point people in the right direction. I appreciate the tip of what not to do as I have foolishly done exactly what you said not to. I imagine you said that as the bigger radius might soften the pulses in the intake runner. That is my gut feeling as to what you are eluding to, but then again I don’t know crap. Lol.

Paul
"It's a fine line between clever and stupid." David St. Hubbins

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by 88bluestar » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:05 am

I’m just trying to figure out if he initially critiqued my intake work or Cowan’s intake pics lol!?

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by Carnut1 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:52 am

Screenshot_2019-04-12-06-48-53.png
88bluestar wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:05 am
I’m just trying to figure out if he initially critiqued my intake work or Cowan’s intake pics lol!?
The pic in question was the one I posted before of a Vic jr. Tall entry radius. This is a different view of same plenum. Thanks, Charlie
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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by BradH » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:00 am

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:03 pm
BradH wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:51 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:42 pm


Of course there is, they spent a lot of money for me to do the research. They own it.
Then why even bring it up, if you can't/won't discuss it? It adds nothing to the discussion, other than now we know that you know something apparently nobody else does.
Because knowing that there are properties worth looking for that few know about, is valuable in and of itself.
If I could have known in advance of spending the money I did to find it that there was something to be found or if I had solid reason to know there was no hope I could have made decision accordingly.
At the time, if it were not possible to find that gain, the project would have been canceled. It was slightly below a competitive manifold.
Lots of information is valuable even if it isn't what you want.
I'll reread this thread and see if I overlooked where you were subtly offering guidance, rather than simply making a statement on which you weren't willing to expound.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, but people playing the "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you... " card gets old.
One big happy PITA to everyone who knows me! :lol:

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:04 am

BradH wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:00 am
I'll reread this thread and see if I overlooked where you were subtly offering guidance, rather than simply making a statement on which you weren't willing to expound.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, but people playing the "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you... " card gets old.
Get a job working in those circumstances and then you will understand.

How would you like it if you spent a lot of money to find a competitive advantage for your products and one of your employees posted the details on the web?
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by BradH » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:02 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:04 am
BradH wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:00 am
I'll reread this thread and see if I overlooked where you were subtly offering guidance, rather than simply making a statement on which you weren't willing to expound.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, but people playing the "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you... " card gets old.
Get a job working in those circumstances and then you will understand.

How would you like it if you spent a lot of money to find a competitive advantage for your products and one of your employees posted the details on the web?
I already do, and therefore say absolutely nothing online or outside the ears of my project team & stakeholders re the specifics of what I work on. Yes, I have to sign an NDA and all that fun stuff. It also has absolutely nothing to do with any subject matter discussed on here.

There's no point in us continuing this, and I won't bother with similar comments in the future.
One big happy PITA to everyone who knows me! :lol:

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by 88bluestar » Mon May 06, 2019 3:09 pm

So was the work I did ok for my combination or look like dog poop? Be honest guys lol!

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Re: Plenum,2925?

Post by JoePorting » Mon May 06, 2019 6:49 pm

The best way to test your work is to buy a new #2925 and bolt it on stock out of the box and see how it does.
Joe Facciano

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