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Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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F-BIRD'88
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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by F-BIRD'88 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:19 am

Olds455: If it is a good practical usefull Formula method that gets you in the ball park most of the time, then other peoples test data will show a positivevtrend (most of the time). Other peoples results by using the formula is what matters....
It is either a usefull guideline formula (for the end user) or it is not.
Yes there will be exceptions... It is not a absolute..
Lets get the test data and let the chips. fall where.....

DV gave it for FREE. Didn't cost you a dime.
So try it out.....

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:57 am

RevTheory wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:59 am
People should actually be commended for simply following the data. How many of the guys who constantly bash DV secretly wish that a major cam company had contacted them for a 4-year, fully-funded R&D project?
I for one, would not be interested in spending 4 years doing that myself.
And It is not an efficient use of resources for a business either.

A better use of resources would be to develop a technology to simulate the physics and then validate the accuracy of the simulation.

- requires much less resources
- returns far more valuable data
- advances a technology that can be used to improve products
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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by Stan Weiss » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:57 am

Jon,
Let's be real here. What we have today in computers / software was not there years ago. Just what would you have run on an 8088/8086 PC even with the optional math co-processor installed?

Stan
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Do you use engine simulation software that uses cylinder head flow files?
We have a package of more than 3025 DFW or FLW Files

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by RevTheory » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:16 pm

Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:57 am
Jon,
Let's be real here. What we have today in computers / software was not there years ago. Just what would you have run on an 8088/8086 PC even with the optional math co-processor installed?

Stan
Back when David was contracted to do the R&D, guys had to actually be able to sort through mountains of data and think for themselves.

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by CamKing » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:59 pm

Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:04 am
I believe the bases for David's COS CAM program which he boiled down to the 128 one liner, was 1000's of dyno tests he did with / for Harvey Crane.
I find this to be extremely funny.
My dad, and Harvey went way back.
When my dad was in Daytona, working with one of the Cup teams, Harvey gave my dad a tour of the Crane Cams facility. In the middle of the tour, he asked my dad, "do you want to see the secret to making money in the cam business? ". He then walked my dad over to the dyno rooms, where the doors were padlocked shut. He then went on to tell my dad, that your money is way more effectively spent on advertising, then on development. It's much cheaper to make the customer believe you have a better product, then to actually develop one.
Mike Jones
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jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
(704)489-2449

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by RevTheory » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:08 pm

What Stan said is true. Harvey went on to say, "if I ground cams for what the engine needed instead of what the customer thought he wanted, I wouldn't sell any camshafts."

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by CamKing » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:23 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:08 pm
What Stan said is true. Harvey went on to say, "if I ground cams for what the engine needed instead of what the customer thought he wanted, I wouldn't sell any camshafts."
Where I won't sell a customer what he thinks he needs, if it's not what the engine application needs. I just point him to Comp. Life's too short, to sell crappy cams.
Mike Jones
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http://www.jonescams.com
(704)489-2449

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by RevTheory » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:29 pm

CamKing wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:23 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:08 pm
What Stan said is true. Harvey went on to say, "if I ground cams for what the engine needed instead of what the customer thought he wanted, I wouldn't sell any camshafts."
Where I won't sell a customer what he thinks he needs, if it's not what the engine application needs. I just point him to Comp. Life's too short, to sell crappy cams.
Good for you and a respectable way to conduct your business. It doesn't have anything to do with David's R&D for Harvey nor the data David got from it.

And this has been bugging me a bit. David is nothing but complementary to you on this forum yet you dig at him over and over. I get that you need for things to sound as black magic as possible so people call you for cams but to take cheap shots at someone who does nothing but sing your praises is quite tacky.

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by Stan Weiss » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:14 pm

I was at Crane when they were in Hallendale Florida. This was in the late '70's and got a tour of the place. I don't know whether it was just for show or was actually used for development. But they did had a teletype which I was told was their link to a time share Main Frame computer.

Stan
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Do you use engine simulation software that uses cylinder head flow files?
We have a package of more than 3025 DFW or FLW Files

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:15 pm

Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:57 am
Jon,
Let's be real here. What we have today in computers / software was not there years ago. Just what would you have run on an 8088/8086 PC even with the optional math co-processor installed?

Stan
If the dyno tests were done that long ago, before automated data collection and processing, I would not be interested in it at all for use in developing conclusions about today's engines.

BTW was this before of after Richard Moser was involved with Crane? Richard had the skills and knowledge to do it in the 60's.
He gave me the Fortran code he wrote for developing the cams for Chrysler that were used back when he was developing some of the race Hemi stuff.

Frankly, if someone really spent 4 years doing that, they wasted 3 years and 10 months
Last edited by SchmidtMotorWorks on Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by CamKing » Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:16 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:29 pm
CamKing wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:23 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:08 pm
What Stan said is true. Harvey went on to say, "if I ground cams for what the engine needed instead of what the customer thought he wanted, I wouldn't sell any camshafts."
Where I won't sell a customer what he thinks he needs, if it's not what the engine application needs. I just point him to Comp. Life's too short, to sell crappy cams.
Good for you and a respectable way to conduct your business. It doesn't have anything to do with David's R&D for Harvey nor the data David got from it.

And this has been bugging me a bit. David is nothing but complementary to you on this forum yet you dig at him over and over. I get that you need for things to sound as black magic as possible so people call you for cams but to take cheap shots at someone who does nothing but sing your praises is quite tacky.
Cut back on the medication.
There was no dig at David. Just pointing out How Harvey Crane's business model changed, over the years. He was also not alone. Many "Performance" companies spend all their money making their product look good, instead of making it good.
As for "Black Magic" cams, I've spent the last 30 years, dispelling that industry legend. It's all simple math, and nothing more. There's no "Magic" number. No VooDoo. No "Trick of the week". It's just equations based on the parameters of the engine, and the application requirements of the engine.
David is good at what he does, but what he does, is not what I do. He gets paid to help the below average engine builder become an above average engine builder. That's great, and very helpful to the industry, by education more people, to understand how an engine works, and how it's not "Black Magic.
Mike Jones
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jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
(704)489-2449

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by ClassAct » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:12 pm

CamKing wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:59 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:04 am
I believe the bases for David's COS CAM program which he boiled down to the 128 one liner, was 1000's of dyno tests he did with / for Harvey Crane.
I find this to be extremely funny.
My dad, and Harvey went way back.
When my dad was in Daytona, working with one of the Cup teams, Harvey gave my dad a tour of the Crane Cams facility. In the middle of the tour, he asked my dad, "do you want to see the secret to making money in the cam business? ". He then walked my dad over to the dyno rooms, where the doors were padlocked shut. He then went on to tell my dad, that your money is way more effectively spent on advertising, then on development. It's much cheaper to make the customer believe you have a better product, then to actually develop one.


This is 100% fact. And it's not just cam companies that don't test their own stuff. It's much more expensive to test and develop than it is to just advertise the crap out of something. The buying public is generally ignorant.

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:39 pm

A good example of that is the fabricated manifolds made in China that some "US" manufacturers market.
There is nothing good about those manifolds, much worse than stock

They weren't even designed by the companies that sell them. The Chinese companies came over here, product in hand at dirt cheap prices. No one that tested them and cared would sell them.

People buy them though.

The interesting thing is the manufacturing is quite good on some of them. If someone would give them some guidance, they could deliver a great product dirt cheap.

Doubt it? Look at some of the nicest billet Holley style carbs made today. They are machined and anodized in China. Then assembled in the USA.
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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:39 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:16 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:57 am
Jon,
Let's be real here. What we have today in computers / software was not there years ago. Just what would you have run on an 8088/8086 PC even with the optional math co-processor installed?

Stan
Back when David was contracted to do the R&D, guys had to actually be able to sort through mountains of data and think for themselves.
By today's standards of data management it is like comparing a typewriter to a computer and Google for research.

Just look at the software Crane used to design cams. By today's standards it would be considered torture.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

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Re: Determining the correct valve opening and closing points

Post by MadBill » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:53 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:39 pm
...The interesting thing is the manufacturing is quite good on some of them. If someone would give them some guidance, they could deliver a great product dirt cheap...
Surprisingly (but considering human nature, maybe not...) common: Horrible designs beautifully executed, because for 95% of potential buyers cheap, shiny and barely functional beats pricey, plain and outstandingly effective. #-o
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

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