Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by chevyfreak »

Dave Koehler wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:51 am SBC 327, 462 casting. Tapered area over the spark plug area.
Is this an example of the tapered quench thinking from way back?
492 is the same.
My thinking , and i could be wrong as i dont have every single head that was made to check up on this but from what im seeing is all closed chamber heads had them. Gm used it to help make chamber smaller. Where open chamber heads only has that small piece around plug probably for plug reinforcement.

But it could also cause an swirl to help move the mixture towards rest of chamber.

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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by Dave Koehler »

461s did not have that relief.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by BradH »

OK, I did some generic searching both on SpeedTalk and elsewhere across the interweb for "tapered quench" & "tapered squish", and found a few(?) things.

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Re Toyota taper squish: "...the other thing the taper squish design enhances is the "reverse squish".....when the piston goes down and opens up the squish area, the taper speeds up the sucking of the burning mix to the outer wall.....thereby speeding up the burn which shortens the burn time..."

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"Toyota research (SAE 1999-01-1494) showed knock limit improvement from better reverse squish flow in the early expansion stroke. Burn reaches bore wall more quickly reducing the tendency of end gas to autoignite."

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"... a tapered squish, 2 degrees, will allow lower octane and more advancement of the timing before detonation. This equals more power. This is done by increasing the squish clearance by the combustion chamber and reducing it at the piston edge. Flat squish bands are a thing of the past."

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Re SAE 981087 - Development of Toyota 1ZZ-FE Engine: "... one other major flaw in the model being used now: a larger squish volume in an otherwise identical engine will take longer to empty (more squish volume, AND less discharge area), and as the squish ratio increases, there is likely a point where it's too late to be useful, due to excessive, delay, heating, and an approaching flame front."

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[David Redszus]: "The squish passage ways can be parallel or tapered. If the length of the squish band is short, a parallel passage can be used. If the flow length of the squish is long, a tapered passage must be used to prevent choking the squish flow through the squish window area. If a tapered squish is used, you must then use the average clearance in your calculations.

The shape of the corners of the squish area window has an effect on flow. A sharp edge window produces higher velocity BTC but inhibits squish flow into the quench area ATC.

While compressibility factors should be considered, there are other even more important factors to consider regarding squish. The D'arcy friction factor must be considered since the very narrow squish passage area exposes the flow to surface wall texture.

In addition, the rising piston will scrape heated gases from the cylinder walls and force them into the squish volume that is being compressed. The heated gases produce significant changes in temperature and consequently in fluid viscosity. Local fluid viscosity produces the shear forces in the air fluid and produces non-uniformity of flow.

Lastly, the Reynolds number should be considered which employs area, velocity, density and viscosity. It determines the transition point to turbulent flow and which point a whole new set of equations are necessary."

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"... it sounds like those [Singh] groooves[sp] are just a "poor mans" tapered squish zone"

[David Vizard]: "Funny you should say that. I have only recently come to a tentative conclusion that every two valve engine quench area I have ever seen including mine are not what they should be - not even close.

As of now I am into some CFD stuff on what happens in the quench but I fear the stuff I have access to is not up to what I might need.

what I can say for almost sure is that the way most people think Singh grooves function (whether they work or not) is not really what happens."

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[?]: "That's the way I see it. The pistons in the motors without the grooves would be clean at the outer edge of the squish region. Putting the grooves in they would have a uniform color across the entire piston. I don't think the grooves act as 'jets'.

[David Vizard]: "You and I agree Larry, the grooves appear to have more of an impact on "reverse squish" to help complete the burn."

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[John Marcella]: OK, what about the tapered quench? A lot of max effort NA motors use up to a 3* taper on the quench pad.

If you had 1 inch of quench from the bore this would add .051 to the .040 you may have started with.

I think this would prob be good for both N2o and NA. The taper should direct fuel towards the center of the bore and away from the rings.

And it should help get the flame front across the hole[sp] cyl earlier.

I believe that you would want the flame front to get all the way across the bore ass fast as you can.

(not a expert , just thoughts)

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[David Vizard]: "The reality is that the [Singh] grooves may provide more of a benefit by providing ‘quench relief’ and drawing in some of the flame front into the quench gap and burning it more effectively earlier on in the combustion event. That however, is only supposition on my part as I have not investigated that part of the cycle – only the compression side.

Is that going to guarantee results? Hell no – there are still a host of other criteria to consider and that is why I said a real investigation of Singh grooves will take a giant budget – way more than anything I can come up with...

At this moment in time I think that there is much more to be had from what is commonly known as ‘Tapered Quench’. Am I putting any effort into that? Same answer - hell no! I will tell you what the latest thing is and that is RQC or ‘Radical Quench Control’ I can’t go into details here because it is subject to patent applications..."

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OK, so it sounds like it's being used in some applications, and may show benefits under the right scenario.

What caught my attention -- and now has me looking for my asbestos BVDs -- were the comments equating Singh grooves to a "poor mans" tapered squish zone. That triggered a memory (doesn't happen often these days) of something I saw w/ the BES BB Chevy entry in the 2005 EMC challenge... Tony B. put "fire grooves" in the piston tops.
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BES EMC BBC 3.jpg
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He said he'd never tested them before and didn't know if they made any difference (and may have never tried them again), but the picture I've attached looks as if they did help extend the range of coloration on the piston tops. That's one of the benefits people above have also said was a benefit of "reverse squish" from a tapered squish/quench channel.

Hey, this isn't the direction I'd intended to go w/ this post, but just a slightly(?) off-tangent FYI.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by Alkyfool »

No expert and have not looked at this since early 1980 U of MN engineering lab modeling Combustion and Detonation. I would like to see the BTC CFD of the tapered squish to see if the flow is clearing out the end gas area. The tapered squish posted earlier appear to be parallel spaced but directed upward and more in line to direct the flow toward the spark plug. The piston's sharp edge acts like an anti reversion device to stop inflow and keep the charge and raw fuel over the piston. The standard squish would be directing the flow across the bore and maybe piston dome if it has one but not directed towards the spark plug. I have seen studies with the taper upward in a more standard configuration like chambers softening and positive results and emission control.

Keeping the end gas clear seems to be important for emissions and detonation control. Whether Sing groove or taper or less quench area, I think what ever you do to clear the end gas or get cylinder pressure balanced or flame to that area helps.

I study direct injection gasoline engines and try to visualize how their pistons and chamber design might work on a typical BBC.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by LoganD »

You can't really talk about "squish" by itself. 2 Valve inline cylinder engines tend to have too much swirl and not enough tumble, that's why a "squish" area seems to help them. You're simultaneously helping mixing (absence of tumble) and directing the mixture back towards the center of the chamber to offset too much swirl. Trying to direct this is not important, it's the MOTION that matters. I think you'd have to do some very, very intense combustion analysis to determine whether some sort of angle would help, and your time and money would be much better spent trying to improve tumble. This isn't so easy on inline valve engines without really sacrificing flow, but it is very easy on canted valve or hemi engines.

If you want to improve an old school design, look at what the engineers do. It'd be very intelligent to copy/analyze modern 2V combustion designs such as an LS or Ford's SOHC 6.2. Ford's SOHC 6.2 in particular is a very good example of balancing combustion motion with flow in a large bore 2V design, but it is a "hemi" style setup so it's not as applicable to inline valve engines. The real key is that if you're worrying about mixing after the fuel and air are already in the chamber and the valve is closed, it's too late.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by 69427 »

Alkyfool wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:47 pm I study direct injection gasoline engines and try to visualize how their pistons and chamber design might work on a typical BBC.
Have you ever looked into what a tapered squish would do for a methanol injected (mfi) BBC?
Say a 3-5 degree head chamber cut (softening) with a BBC 4.5 bore at 13.5-14.0 CR.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by 69427 »

I just thought someone would like to see this video from Darin Morgan on this subject.

Highlights at 17 & 19 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFypM7A ... e=emb_logo
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

69427 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:25 am I just thought someone would like to see this video from Darin Morgan on this subject.

Highlights at 17 & 19 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFypM7A ... e=emb_logo
Wow: Hot off the presses! How timely!

So, is doing this on the head the "right" or only way to introduce a tapered quench? Or is doing this on the piston just as good?

-Do any piston MFGrs offer a tapered quench off-the-shelf piston?
What are appropriate ways to machine a head with a 4 deg taper as in Darin's video?


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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by hoffman900 »

This is free when you sign up, and relates to a 2 valve hemi type chamber:

https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?pid=976&lang=en

Research on Combustion Improvement Techniques by Intake Valve Offset and Squish Effect , 2013
Reported in this paper are the technologies for improvement of combustion efficiency by applying two simple methods to a single cylinder, 110 cm3 displacement, four-stroke, two-valve gasoline engine.
In the first attempt, we tried to improve combustion efficiency by increasing tumble of the air-fuel mixture flow. To increase tumble, we devised an offset intake valve design in which a part of the intake valve was located outside of the cylinder bore. With this offset intake valve configuration, a part of the inlet port perimeter was blocked causing disturbance of air-fuel mixture flow along the cylinder wall that resulted in a strong turbulence. The increased turbulence permitted lean burn at an air-fuel ratio leaner by two points, reducing Indicated Specific Fuel Consumption by 4.8% from that of the base engine. With the intake valve shifted outwards against the cylinder bore, the spacing next to the exhaust valve increased, allowing the intake valve diameter to be enlarged to compensate for the deterioration of the maximum power.
In the second attempt, we tried to improve combustion efficiency by increasing the reversed squish flow of the air-fuel mixture. As the means to increase reversed squish flow, we employed a slant-parallel squish configuration. With the application of this squish arrangement, the margin against knocking generation was enhanced and the compression ratio was increased to 9.5 from the original 9.0 while reducing the Indicated Specific Fuel Consumption by 2.6%. The offset intake valve design coupled with the high compression ratio produced by the slant-parallel squish design lowered the Indicated Specific Fuel Consumption by 6.0% compared to the base engine.
I'll have to listen to Darin over the next few days to get a feel for what he is saying.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by steve cowan »

I can see this as another IT DEPENDS on what you are trying to achieve sort of thing
Especially in a 23deg head as a example there is only so much you can do,we need to look at valve jobs,top cut transition to chamber,not deshrouding Chambers to the limits. Looking at the piston photo- the grooved area is still showing unburned fuel in this area hence the black carbon.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by racear2865 »

Ive been cutting 4 to 6 degrees in the quench on NA motors and even more for power adders up to 12 degrees. We play with compression chamber to not swirl around the spark plug. If I need more compression, I dome the piston to punch hole in chamber. This will deter detonation
in my feeling.
reed
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by GARY C »

NewbVetteGuy wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:01 pm
69427 wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:25 am I just thought someone would like to see this video from Darin Morgan on this subject.

Highlights at 17 & 19 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFypM7A ... e=emb_logo
Wow: Hot off the presses! How timely!

So, is doing this on the head the "right" or only way to introduce a tapered quench? Or is doing this on the piston just as good?

-Do any piston MFGrs offer a tapered quench off-the-shelf piston?
What are appropriate ways to machine a head with a 4 deg taper as in Darin's video?


Adam
Either way would work but I don't know of any MNF that offers this.

I thought about this idea in 2006 after letting one end a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plywood drop on the shop floor and watching the dust blast across the shop, then talking to DV I found out that he and others had been trying to get head and piston MNF on board with testing but they were not interested.

Good video link BTW...
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by steve cowan »

are you guys modifying the quench pad only after you have got the cylinder head as best as possible ??I understand cutting the angle to slow down flame front,but are you guys doing this to redirect flame propagation??is this a band aid fix for poor cylinder head.just trying to understand why.
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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

steve cowan wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:21 am are you guys modifying the quench pad only after you have got the cylinder head as best as possible ??I understand cutting the angle to slow down flame front,but are you guys doing this to redirect flame propagation??is this a band aid fix for poor cylinder head.just trying to understand why.
Free "mechanical octane" and faster burn speed requiring less advance.
(Can push dynamic compression when octane limited and get MOHR TORQUES! / HP.)


I'm kinda confused that somehow this slows down the burn speed in nitrous motors with a steeper taper, but is also supposed to speed up the burn speed on an NA combo with the 4 degree taper...


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Re: Benefits of tapered quench for NA applications?

Post by steve cowan »

NewbVetteGuy wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:45 pm
steve cowan wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:21 am are you guys modifying the quench pad only after you have got the cylinder head as best as possible ??I understand cutting the angle to slow down flame front,but are you guys doing this to redirect flame propagation??is this a band aid fix for poor cylinder head.just trying to understand why.
Free "mechanical octane" and faster burn speed requiring less advance.
(Can push dynamic compression when octane limited and get MOHR TORQUES! / HP.)


I'm kinda confused that somehow this slows down the burn speed in nitrous motors with a steeper taper, but is also supposed to speed up the burn speed on an NA combo with the 4 degree taper...


Adam
seems what DM was saying it moves the mixture vortex around away from spark plug and also helps fill the intake valve shrouded area against chamber than can run lean,I am not sure this modification works in every application though.
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