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Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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ptuomov
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:08 am

englertracing wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:08 am
Not sure if it's Been mentioned, but isn't maintaining a higher oil level in the sump a worthy goal weather it makes 5hp or 0 or even looses a couple.
I'm thinking that, if one is designing a windage tray for say a wet-sump road race V8 engine, if one isn't losing a tiny bit of power on a stationary dyno relative to a very large open pan, then one is doing something wrong.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:30 am

Most mistakes are made by not calculating the change in bulk in the oil when running on a dyno. It is not atypical to have 10-20% of free air bubbles. So if you use the also typical calculation of measuring the neat oil volume that lets the level be just underneath the windage tray (or "baffle" or "surge baffle" etc.) when running but neglect the growth in volume (not even considering surface foaming) you will likely have one of two outcomes:

1) No increased power shown because the windage tray has been swamped in situ and any gains are negated to no net change.

2) A power loss since parasitic losses exceed any gains.

Enjoy.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:04 pm

Here is a good video of a representation of acceleration forces on the oiling system of a tracked car. It is not 100% accurate because the system itself cannot be accelerated (instrumented vehicles rule).


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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:44 pm

Somewhat contrary to my theory, unless this was run with a shallow pan:

‘Rather than spending money on exotic materials, Duttweiler recommends upgrading cooling and oiling systems. “It doesn’t need to be dry sump, but especially if you’re feeding a turbo, you’ll want a high-volume pump. Pay attention to the oil pan as well. I recently dyno’d an LS build with no windage tray just to see, and it was down 64 hp!”’

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/factors ... e-1000-hp/

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by PackardV8 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:23 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:44 pm
Somewhat contrary to my theory, unless this was run with a shallow pan:

‘Rather than spending money on exotic materials, Duttweiler recommends upgrading cooling and oiling systems. “It doesn’t need to be dry sump, but especially if you’re feeding a turbo, you’ll want a high-volume pump. Pay attention to the oil pan as well. I recently dyno’d an LS build with no windage tray just to see, and it was down 64 hp!”’
It depends upon which engine and what RPM.

We build obsolete engines and on many of them there's room in the bottom of the block/oil pan to swing a cat by the tail and they don't turn that many RPM.

The LS being a more recent design is much more tightly packaged and GM has spent much dyno time designing the block and pan to move the oil out of the way and equalize pressure from bay to bay.

There are Asian four-cylinders which make the LS lower end seem cavernous. Some of these little devils are so tightly packaged a putty knife won't go between the crank and the block anywhere in there.

Formula One engines are even more tightly dimensioned; most are locked up solid at room temperature. They must have the oil and water heated to 200 degrees and circulated for a hour before the block expands sufficiently so it's safe to rotate the engine by hand.
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by RCJ » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:50 pm

One of my favorite dyno stories.We were racing a spec head and intake oval track class .They had a bbc on the dyno before mine and I was helping tune it.It had a 1970s scorpion style intake on it,they had a extra intake in the shop, I switched it out.Picked up 20hp everywhere.I told the owner of the motor he could pickup a used intake for $150,he said he didn't think it was worth it.
We put my motor on next, I was going from a sumped oil pan to a 10quart box style with trays, cost was $600. Zero hp gain at peak but from 6800 to 7600 it gained 6hp everywhere.I was giving high fives to everybody!

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by shoedoos » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:40 pm

observation....in that rotating dyno video up above ^^^^^^ isn't it nice to know after all the engineering advancements the Germans and Porsche have made, their monsters still sound like a real V8.....

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by CharlieB53 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:13 pm

I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank Assyrian so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:26 pm

CharlieB53 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:13 pm
I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank Assyrian so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.

How would that deal with the crankcase piston pumping pulses in a big cross-plane V8? Separately pull a vacuum?

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:23 pm

CharlieB53 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:13 pm
I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank [assembly] so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.
I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:03 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:23 pm
CharlieB53 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:13 pm
I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank [assembly] so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.
I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.

That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:14 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:03 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:23 pm
CharlieB53 wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:13 pm
I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank [assembly] so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.
I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.

That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.
There are two exemplars of scraper technology present: 1) the louvers; 2) the leading edge. Chrysler utilized the technology approximately 50 years later with the new Hemi. Differing design manuals restrict engineers in the closest approach of the rotating assembly. With the large cross-plane Viper V10 engine, Dodge came closest to the rods with a dedicated scraper at about 3mm or ~.120" while Nissan came within 1mm or ~.040" with the bearing beam baffle louvers in the SR engine group.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:18 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:14 pm
ptuomov wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:03 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:23 pm


I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.

That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.
There are two exemplars of scraper technology present: 1) the louvers; 2) the leading edge. Chrysler utilized the technology approximately 50 years later with the new Hemi. Differing design manuals restrict engineers in the closest approach of the rotating assembly. With the large cross-plane Viper V10 engine, Dodge came closest to the rods with a dedicated scraper at about 3mm or ~.120" while Nissan came within 1mm or ~.040" with the bearing beam baffle louvers in the SR engine group.
Are those large displacement cross plane V8s?

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:55 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:18 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:14 pm
ptuomov wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:03 pm



That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.
There are two exemplars of scraper technology present: 1) the louvers; 2) the leading edge. Chrysler utilized the technology approximately 50 years later with the new Hemi. Differing design manuals restrict engineers in the closest approach of the rotating assembly. With the large cross-plane Viper V10 engine, Dodge came closest to the rods with a dedicated scraper at about 3mm or ~.120" while Nissan came within 1mm or ~.040" with the bearing beam baffle louvers in the SR engine group.
Are those large displacement cross plane V8s?
A Pontiac V8 389 is 6.4 litres.

Concurrent with the 8.3 litre V10, Dodge used a dedicated scraper in the Dodge 2.4 litre straight four. Sometimes people like to claim that the technology only works for I4 or _______. The SR I4 ranges in displacement from 1.6 to 2.0 litres.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:47 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:55 pm
A Pontiac V8 389 is 6.4 litres.
In that 6.4L cross plane V8 case, I believe the factory must have left ample room for gas flows between bays and nothing in the windage tray is sticking too close to the rods and the crank.

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