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Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Kevin Johnson
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:33 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:57 pm
...

Strobe would not be enough. Especially on the bottom of a pan.

Seriously, if have any credible evidence, post it.
If this is the best you have, then you don't have anything credible.
Carrey ???

I am getting old. It will pop into my head. I just know it will.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:41 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:33 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:57 pm
...

Strobe would not be enough. Especially on the bottom of a pan.

Seriously, if have any credible evidence, post it.
If this is the best you have, then you don't have anything credible.
Carrey ???

I am getting old. It will pop into my head. I just know it will.
Yawn, if you have anything credible post it.
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

Kevin Johnson
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:59 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:41 pm
...
Yawn, if you have anything credible post it.
I know some of you are probably thinking, The Three Amigos, and, sadly, yes, that's apropros.

Kevin Johnson
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:08 pm

http://www.improvedracing.com/oiling-sy ... -3_50.html

A customer in Australia asked me to include one of their sump baffles in the package. Looked like an excellent part and I believe they have track data from Oz.

http://www.bmw2002.com/

Just sold an M30 scraper to another customer is Australia and I recommended their sump baffles. I have done that with countless MXX series orders.

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ptuomov
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:18 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:08 pm
http://www.improvedracing.com/oiling-sy ... -3_50.html

A customer in Australia asked me to include one of their sump baffles in the package. Looked like an excellent part and I believe they have track data from Oz.

http://www.bmw2002.com/

Just sold an M30 scraper to another customer is Australia and I recommended their sump baffles. I have done that with countless MXX series orders.
Hey, I’ve never questioned the effectiveness of your marketing efforts!

Kevin Johnson
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:42 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:18 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:08 pm
http://www.improvedracing.com/oiling-sy ... -3_50.html

A customer in Australia asked me to include one of their sump baffles in the package. Looked like an excellent part and I believe they have track data from Oz.

http://www.bmw2002.com/

Just sold an M30 scraper to another customer is Australia and I recommended their sump baffles. I have done that with countless MXX series orders.
Hey, I’ve never questioned the effectiveness of your marketing efforts!
Yes, that is why I had my business in my signature for the fourteen years that I have been on Speedtalk. Oh, wait. :lol:

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:26 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:42 pm
ptuomov wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:18 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:08 pm
http://www.improvedracing.com/oiling-sy ... -3_50.html

A customer in Australia asked me to include one of their sump baffles in the package. Looked like an excellent part and I believe they have track data from Oz.

http://www.bmw2002.com/

Just sold an M30 scraper to another customer is Australia and I recommended their sump baffles. I have done that with countless MXX series orders.
Hey, I’ve never questioned the effectiveness of your marketing efforts!
Yes, that is why I had my business in my signature for the fourteen years that I have been on Speedtalk. Oh, wait. :lol:
You served a layup there and I couldn’t resist! Didn’t mean anything serious about it. Just a standard internet burn.

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ptuomov
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:04 pm

I confirmed the following. The gas flows impact oil flows in the crankcase but the oil flows do not impact gas flows.

This is a good thing, because doing a 10 million cell two phase flow simulation would be expensive. Instead, what they do now is they first run the full model with gas only. Then they cut off one bay from the engine and use the gas only simulation to constrain the boundary. In this smaller section, they can run a two-phase flow simulations at a more acceptable cost. That’s the way to model where the oil flows inside the crankcase, apparently.

Modeling a four cylinder engine this way gets you the right result. For a big cross-plane V8, you’d have to do all four bays anyway because the gas flows are so different between bays.

The oil particles hitting objects is modeled as a probabilistic event with three possible outcomes. First, absorption where the oil sticks to the object. Second, rebound, where the oil particle rebounds without breaking up. Third, splatter in which the particle breaks into smaller particles, which rebound.
Last edited by ptuomov on Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:12 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:59 pm
SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:41 pm
...
Yawn, if you have anything credible post it.
I know some of you are probably thinking, The Three Amigos, and, sadly, yes, that's apropros.
Joe Isuzu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJMq_7alQpU
http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com Prototypes, Tooling, Molds.

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ptuomov
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:37 pm

Here's the gas only simulation for a small four banger. Here, you can see the crankshaft rotation having a direct impact on the gas flows. In the V8 case below, you can't see any of those effects because the piston pumping pulses and bay to bay flow "blows away" all smaller effects like that.
I4cut.png
Bay4Degrees135.png
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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by Kevin Johnson » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:09 pm

ptuomov wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:26 pm

You served a layup there and I couldn’t resist! Didn’t mean anything serious about it. Just a standard internet burn.
It's okay, amigo!

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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by pamotorman » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:49 am

I saw a video at the GM tech center of a small block race engine with a plexiglass window in the wet sump road race pan and at speed it looked like a big brown rope wrapped around the rotating assy. a 14 inch deep dyno pan was installed without any thing else changed and the engine picked up 30 HP.


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Re: Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

Post by ptuomov » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:35 am

As one would expect, that testing shows a power loss from the windage tray in a stationary dyno:
D36C2439-6669-410A-A33D-F82BAE88A0DD.jpeg
This is of course not the same as lap times.

One could even make the argument that if you’re not losing at least a little bit of power on a stationary dyno from a windage tray, then you’re not doing something right...
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