Reputable links for horsepower from windage tray/crank scraper

[Kevin Johnson]

Most mistakes are made by not calculating the change in bulk in the oil when running on a dyno. It is not atypical to have 10-20% of free air bubbles. So if you use the also typical calculation of measuring the neat oil volume that lets the level be just underneath the windage tray (or "baffle" or "surge baffle" etc.) when running but neglect the growth in volume (not even considering surface foaming) you will likely have one of two outcomes:

1) No increased power shown because the windage tray has been swamped in situ and any gains are negated to no net change.

2) A power loss since parasitic losses exceed any gains.

Enjoy.

[Kevin Johnson]

Here is a good video of a representation of acceleration forces on the oiling system of a tracked car. It is not 100% accurate because the system itself cannot be accelerated (instrumented vehicles rule).

[ptuomov]

Somewhat contrary to my theory, unless this was run with a shallow pan:

‘Rather than spending money on exotic materials, Duttweiler recommends upgrading cooling and oiling systems. “It doesn’t need to be dry sump, but especially if you’re feeding a turbo, you’ll want a high-volume pump. Pay attention to the oil pan as well. I recently dyno’d an LS build with no windage tray just to see, and it was down 64 hp!”’

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/factors ... e-1000-hp/

[PackardV8]

Somewhat contrary to my theory, unless this was run with a shallow pan:

‘Rather than spending money on exotic materials, Duttweiler recommends upgrading cooling and oiling systems. “It doesn’t need to be dry sump, but especially if you’re feeding a turbo, you’ll want a high-volume pump. Pay attention to the oil pan as well. I recently dyno’d an LS build with no windage tray just to see, and it was down 64 hp!”’

It depends upon which engine and what RPM.

We build obsolete engines and on many of them there's room in the bottom of the block/oil pan to swing a cat by the tail and they don't turn that many RPM.

The LS being a more recent design is much more tightly packaged and GM has spent much dyno time designing the block and pan to move the oil out of the way and equalize pressure from bay to bay.

There are Asian four-cylinders which make the LS lower end seem cavernous. Some of these little devils are so tightly packaged a putty knife won't go between the crank and the block anywhere in there.

Formula One engines are even more tightly dimensioned; most are locked up solid at room temperature. They must have the oil and water heated to 200 degrees and circulated for a hour before the block expands sufficiently so it's safe to rotate the engine by hand.

[RCJ]

One of my favorite dyno stories.We were racing a spec head and intake oval track class .They had a bbc on the dyno before mine and I was helping tune it.It had a 1970s scorpion style intake on it,they had a extra intake in the shop, I switched it out.Picked up 20hp everywhere.I told the owner of the motor he could pickup a used intake for $150,he said he didn't think it was worth it.
We put my motor on next, I was going from a sumped oil pan to a 10quart box style with trays, cost was $600. Zero hp gain at peak but from 6800 to 7600 it gained 6hp everywhere.I was giving high fives to everybody!

[shoedoos]

observation....in that rotating dyno video up above ^^^^^^ isn't it nice to know after all the engineering advancements the Germans and Porsche have made, their monsters still sound like a real V8.....

[CharlieB53]

I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank Assyrian so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.

[ptuomov]

I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank Assyrian so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.

How would that deal with the crankcase piston pumping pulses in a big cross-plane V8? Separately pull a vacuum?

[Kevin Johnson]

I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank [assembly] so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.

I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.

[ptuomov]

I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank [assembly] so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.

I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.

That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.

[Kevin Johnson]

I have to wonder if we could construct a screened blanket that would form fit about 2/3 around the crank [assembly] so as to capture most all the oil flung off this wicking the oil away rather than allowing droplets to ricochet back into the violent air currents.

If crankcase space allowed such screening could also be attached to areas of the crankcase walls to further reduce oil ricochet.

I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.

That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.

There are two exemplars of scraper technology present: 1) the louvers; 2) the leading edge. Chrysler utilized the technology approximately 50 years later with the new Hemi. Differing design manuals restrict engineers in the closest approach of the rotating assembly. With the large cross-plane Viper V10 engine, Dodge came closest to the rods with a dedicated scraper at about 3mm or ~.120" while Nissan came within 1mm or ~.040" with the bearing beam baffle louvers in the SR engine group.

[ptuomov]

I have attached two pictures of an OEM windage tray from a large cross-plane V8 engine. I think the principal hurdle in adding a layer of directional or fine mesh screening is cost.

That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.

There are two exemplars of scraper technology present: 1) the louvers; 2) the leading edge. Chrysler utilized the technology approximately 50 years later with the new Hemi. Differing design manuals restrict engineers in the closest approach of the rotating assembly. With the large cross-plane Viper V10 engine, Dodge came closest to the rods with a dedicated scraper at about 3mm or ~.120" while Nissan came within 1mm or ~.040" with the bearing beam baffle louvers in the SR engine group.

Are those large displacement cross plane V8s?

[Kevin Johnson]

That thing is installed far from the crankshaft so there’s area for gas flows.

There are two exemplars of scraper technology present: 1) the louvers; 2) the leading edge. Chrysler utilized the technology approximately 50 years later with the new Hemi. Differing design manuals restrict engineers in the closest approach of the rotating assembly. With the large cross-plane Viper V10 engine, Dodge came closest to the rods with a dedicated scraper at about 3mm or ~.120" while Nissan came within 1mm or ~.040" with the bearing beam baffle louvers in the SR engine group.

Are those large displacement cross plane V8s?

A Pontiac V8 389 is 6.4 litres.

Concurrent with the 8.3 litre V10, Dodge used a dedicated scraper in the Dodge 2.4 litre straight four. Sometimes people like to claim that the technology only works for I4 or _______. The SR I4 ranges in displacement from 1.6 to 2.0 litres.

[ptuomov]

A Pontiac V8 389 is 6.4 litres.

In that 6.4L cross plane V8 case, I believe the factory must have left ample room for gas flows between bays and nothing in the windage tray is sticking too close to the rods and the crank.

[Kevin Johnson]

A Pontiac V8 389 is 6.4 litres.

In that 6.4L cross plane V8 case, I believe the factory must have left ample room for gas flows between bays and nothing in the windage tray is sticking too close to the rods and the crank.

I am sure that you will find the following 2007 GM patent interesting*, as it is for a large displacement cross-plane V8 and it gets into a full discussion of bay-to-bay breathing and pumping exchange. It is notable as it specifies a scraper mounted internal to the tray. If anyone cares to actually look at the patent and has some familiarity with engines they will immediately notice the ubiquitous and varied oil-deflector (aka windage tray) of LS based engines.
* Filed contemporary to the development and release of the LS7.

[My emphasis]

Referring to FIG. 4 and with continued reference to FIGS. 1 and 3, there is shown a perspective view of the topside, i.e. the side adjacent to the crankshaft 14, of the windage tray 32 of FIG. 3. Windows or orifices 54 are defined by the tray member 44 and are operable to provide communication between the first and fourth bays 20 and 26 and the passage 46. The tray member 44 defines a plurality of louvers or slots 56 operable to promote the drain back of oil being thrown from the rotating crankshaft 14. The slots 56 preferably extend longitudinally along the tray member 44 generally parallel to the axis of rotation A of the crankshaft 14. A scraper 58 is mounted to the tray member 44 such that the scraper 58 is positioned substantially adjacent to the crankshaft 14 when the windage tray 32 is mounted to the internal combustion engine 10. The scraper 58 has a contoured profile 60 to approximate the rotational profile of the crankshaft 14. The scraper 58 is operable to strip or remove oil from the rotating crankshaft 14 during operation of the internal combustion engine 10, thereby reducing the likelihood of oil entrainment within the windage.

I am not sure how many more OEMs I need to cite.