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Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by 77cruiser » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:19 pm

I have a set of Bullet lifters they were said to be made by Morel, noisy yea. Was thinking of trying solids myself but I thought if you set them to were there was little to no lash cold you'd end up about 5-6 thou hot with aluminum heads. If I had a SHP block i'd get some spiders & GM lifters.
Don't know if I could make that work with a Little M?
Jim

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by makin chips » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:53 pm

ProPower engines wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:17 pm
427dart wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:50 pm
Those Isky/Johnson lifters ought to be good at over a grand per set. But why does it cost that much for a quiet lifter for a street/strip hyd. roller cam?
Well this is an issue all car guys face. if you want a good quality part they are more costly then a copied cheaper part.
the fact is you get the best lifter made hands down.
If the cost scares you then sell the car and ride a moped because the lifter industry today is not like it was 30 years ago.
Quality has been replaced with cheaper labor costs and greater accepted tolerance levels.
Noisy lifters are just plain out of tolerance and allow for the bleed down to be excessive causing rattling valve train. ](*,)

If you have confirmed the cam profile is not lofting the lifter off the lobes from being too aggressive or allowing the lobe to drop the lifter causing the noise then you need a better quality lifter that has less bleed rate. [-X

Many guys have complained here about having to swap lifters several times to get them to shut up and be quiet
using the same brand so what does that tell you. Even Morel's which were good for years are now suffering issues with being nosey more and more we here this.

Those that do not want any issues with lifters regardless of engine choose the Isky/johnson race lifters because they are
still the best lifters on the market and have been.

Some will argue the fact they have used others with no issues and that is not disputed.

But I can say in 30+ years of using them I have only had 1 issue with noisy valve train using their Hyd. lifters.
Are you sure it's because lifters are getting shit tier or is it because tolerances are decreasing and it's no longer OK to run 20w50 with any lifter you want?

I'd bet a lot has to do with the latter.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by BLOCKMAN » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:13 pm

77cruiser wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:19 pm
I have a set of Bullet lifters they were said to be made by Morel, noisy yea. Was thinking of trying solids myself but I thought if you set them to were there was little to no lash cold you'd end up about 5-6 thou hot with aluminum heads. If I had a SHP block i'd get some spiders & GM lifters.
Don't know if I could make that work with a Little M?
No place for a spider in the Little-M block. Also Morel makes a HYD. Lifter with a .700 wheel which is made by Eaton which is quiet I have used some without any problems.

Other then the Johnson Lifters are my choice now for HYD Lifters and I am a Morel dealer. LOL

On a side note Johnson at some point in time will be coming out with a .904 HYD lifter for the Chevy's .

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by ProPower engines » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:22 pm

I big issue guys seem to over look is the need for a bleed hold in the front of the oil galley plugs.
I see guys just tap and install pipe plugs with out giving the issue a 2nd thought. All BBC engines regardless of lifter design and all sm blk roller engines have a bleed hole in the galley plug.

The reason as we all know is to get the trapped air out of the system and not compress in the end near the last 2-3 lifters
creating unwanted valve train noise..
They just seem to be OK with installing the plugs that are in the kit and go with it. Then the noise starts and they complain about the issue. the other thing I see is lifter clearance on used blocks being too much or more then really wanted.

If all things are equal and the average set of entry level hyd. rollers are used and work as desired there may be some
issues like lifter bore size and manufacturing item number in the line that have to do with it.

I do not know how often they re-calibrate the machine tooling on the lines that make the parts for lifters but
that also can be the big deal when they start in spec then as a many thousand are done its set up is out.
Who know how many in the line are made before they pull 1 and check it.

And all hyd. roller lifters made today are designed with the use of lighter oils in mind as well.
20/50 is not really a good choice IMO for an oil to use with Hyd. rollers they need a thinner oil to work the best.

And with the popularity of synthetic oils today cost for the most part is why they are not used over conventional oil.
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by ProPower engines » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:30 pm

Are you sure it's because lifters are getting shit tier or is it because tolerances are decreasing and it's no longer OK to run 20w50 with any lifter you want?

I'd bet a lot has to do with the latter.
[/quote]

Hyd. roller lifters when they 1st cam in factory engines they had already gone away from the heavier weight oils of yester year to 10/30 and 5/30 weight oils.
the import stuff is even less forgiving with the hyd. bucket lifters/followers. If you use a heavier oil in them they will be noisey till the oil temp gets high enough to allow the oil to flow correctly through the lifters.
They are noisy when cold and most will shut up after the oil heats enough.

From what I have seen and used even the full syn. oils will flow better then the dino. oils weight for weight.
I guess the thinking on oil as far as what is best brand and weight for HP street engines will never change till
the mass's have educated themselves by working with newer oil technology.
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by Mikej26 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:58 pm

Well I went ahead and replaced the Morel 5044's with a set of Isky/Johnson HPx needleless 2075HYFT's and the valve train is now OEM quite and smooth as glass.

I guess that settles it. I'm not using any other lifters as far as hydraulic rollers are concerned.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by 6.50camaro » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:26 pm

Am I missing something , but using a lifter that is designed and labeled race model (Morel 5044) Then complain when its noisy on the street. Did I miss the memo . Dan

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by Mikej26 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:50 pm

6.50camaro wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:26 pm
Am I missing something , but using a lifter that is designed and labeled race model (Morel 5044) Then complain when its noisy on the street. Did I miss the memo . Dan
Was beyond noise. Some were collapsing and not recovering. I'm fine with a bit of noise, but dysfunction is unacceptable

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by tjs44 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:39 pm

Shaver industries make the Comp Pontiac hyd roller lifters,I wonder if he does any other makes for Comp?They have been the best for the pontiac engines.Tom

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by Keith Morganstein » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:42 pm

tjs44 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:39 pm
Shaver industries make the Comp Pontiac hyd roller lifters,I wonder if he does any other makes for Comp?They have been the best for the pontiac engines.Tom
Shaver makes the comp Short travel lifter. Randy Malik told me about them some years ago. I’ve had good results with the Shaver lifters in BBC engines.
Automotive Machining, cylinder head rebuilding, engine building. Can't seem to quit #-o

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by DCal » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:10 am

Keith Morganstein wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:42 pm
tjs44 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:39 pm
Shaver industries make the Comp Pontiac hyd roller lifters,I wonder if he does any other makes for Comp?They have been the best for the pontiac engines.Tom
Shaver makes the comp Short travel lifter. Randy Malik told me about them some years ago. I’ve had good results with the Shaver lifters in BBC engines.
I have the Comp Short Travel hyd lifters built by Shaver in my BBC with no issues. Have another set going in my new SBC. A good friend and very successful racer assembles those by measuring and matching all the components by hand.

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by Scott » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:14 pm

Mikej26 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:58 pm
Well I went ahead and replaced the Morel 5044's with a set of Isky/Johnson HPx needleless 2075HYFT's and the valve train is now OEM quite and smooth as glass.

I guess that settles it. I'm not using any other lifters as far as hydraulic rollers are concerned.

You read through and listened to all the advice from this post and the results were as claimed . Good choice .
Scott

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by cuisinartvette » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:02 am

^^^^ just put a solid in it stop screwing around with trying to get a HR to do a mans job. Laziness....

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by 6.50camaro » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:57 am

Mikej26 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:50 pm
6.50camaro wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:26 pm
Am I missing something , but using a lifter that is designed and labeled race model (Morel 5044) Then complain when its noisy on the street. Did I miss the memo . Dan
Was beyond noise. Some were collapsing and not recovering. I'm fine with a bit of noise, but dysfunction is unacceptable
Were they used on the street?

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Re: Hydraulic roller lifters: Morel 5044 vs Isky/Johnson needless

Post by cstraub » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:00 pm

Morels have a .750" wheel
Morel's have a live axle in all lifters including the street lifter.
Can they be noisey, yes but it has been my experience that over time the quiet down after they have had some run time. I've been sell and using these since 2003 on the hydraulics.

The GM delphi lifter manual confirms they want a low centistoke rating on oil, and the GM engineers prefer around .070" of pre-load.

Just had a customer on the dyno with a set of Morel .903"s. Noise at start up. I had him get the 20W50 out of the engine. Adjust lifter to 2.5 turns of preload on a 7/16's stud which is about .125" of preload....Ran engine on dyno till it got to temperature. Backed lifter off to 1 full turn. Quiet as a church mouse. With the floating axle and wire loc, you don't have to worry about the swedged Axle like the rest have of coming out.
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