Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

ProPower engines wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:17 pm

427dart wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:50 pm Those Isky/Johnson lifters ought to be good at over a grand per set. But why does it cost that much for a quiet lifter for a street/strip hyd. roller cam?

Well this is an issue all car guys face. if you want a good quality part they are more costly then a copied cheaper part.
the fact is you get the best lifter made hands down.
If the cost scares you then sell the car and ride a moped because the lifter industry today is not like it was 30 years ago.
Quality has been replaced with cheaper labor costs and greater accepted tolerance levels.
Noisy lifters are just plain out of tolerance and allow for the bleed down to be excessive causing rattling valve train.

If you have confirmed the cam profile is not lofting the lifter off the lobes from being too aggressive or allowing the lobe to drop the lifter causing the noise then you need a better quality lifter that has less bleed rate.

Many guys have complained here about having to swap lifters several times to get them to shut up and be quiet
using the same brand so what does that tell you. Even Morel's which were good for years are now suffering issues with being nosey more and more we here this.

Those that do not want any issues with lifters regardless of engine choose the Isky/johnson race lifters because they are
still the best lifters on the market and have been.

Some will argue the fact they have used others with no issues and that is not disputed.

But I can say in 30+ years of using them I have only had 1 issue with noisy valve train using their Hyd. lifters.

Are you sure it's because lifters are getting shit tier or is it because tolerances are decreasing and it's no longer OK to run 20w50 with any lifter you want?

I'd bet a lot has to do with the latter.

I big issue guys seem to over look is the need for a bleed hold in the front of the oil galley plugs.
I see guys just tap and install pipe plugs with out giving the issue a 2nd thought. All BBC engines regardless of lifter design and all sm blk roller engines have a bleed hole in the galley plug.

The reason as we all know is to get the trapped air out of the system and not compress in the end near the last 2-3 lifters
creating unwanted valve train noise..
They just seem to be OK with installing the plugs that are in the kit and go with it. Then the noise starts and they complain about the issue. the other thing I see is lifter clearance on used blocks being too much or more then really wanted.

If all things are equal and the average set of entry level hyd. rollers are used and work as desired there may be some
issues like lifter bore size and manufacturing item number in the line that have to do with it.

I do not know how often they re-calibrate the machine tooling on the lines that make the parts for lifters but
that also can be the big deal when they start in spec then as a many thousand are done its set up is out.
Who know how many in the line are made before they pull 1 and check it.

And all hyd. roller lifters made today are designed with the use of lighter oils in mind as well.
20/50 is not really a good choice IMO for an oil to use with Hyd. rollers they need a thinner oil to work the best.

And with the popularity of synthetic oils today cost for the most part is why they are not used over conventional oil.

Are you sure it's because lifters are getting shit tier or is it because tolerances are decreasing and it's no longer OK to run 20w50 with any lifter you want?

I'd bet a lot has to do with the latter.
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Hyd. roller lifters when they 1st cam in factory engines they had already gone away from the heavier weight oils of yester year to 10/30 and 5/30 weight oils.
the import stuff is even less forgiving with the hyd. bucket lifters/followers. If you use a heavier oil in them they will be noisey till the oil temp gets high enough to allow the oil to flow correctly through the lifters.
They are noisy when cold and most will shut up after the oil heats enough.

From what I have seen and used even the full syn. oils will flow better then the dino. oils weight for weight.
I guess the thinking on oil as far as what is best brand and weight for HP street engines will never change till
the mass's have educated themselves by working with newer oil technology.

Well I went ahead and replaced the Morel 5044's with a set of Isky/Johnson HPx needleless 2075HYFT's and the valve train is now OEM quite and smooth as glass.

I guess that settles it. I'm not using any other lifters as far as hydraulic rollers are concerned.

Am I missing something , but using a lifter that is designed and labeled race model (Morel 5044) Then complain when its noisy on the street. Did I miss the memo . Dan

6.50camaro wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:26 pm Am I missing something , but using a lifter that is designed and labeled race model (Morel 5044) Then complain when its noisy on the street. Did I miss the memo . Dan

Was beyond noise. Some were collapsing and not recovering. I'm fine with a bit of noise, but dysfunction is unacceptable

Shaver industries make the Comp Pontiac hyd roller lifters,I wonder if he does any other makes for Comp?They have been the best for the pontiac engines.Tom

tjs44 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:39 pm Shaver industries make the Comp Pontiac hyd roller lifters,I wonder if he does any other makes for Comp?They have been the best for the pontiac engines.Tom

Shaver makes the comp Short travel lifter. Randy Malik told me about them some years ago. I’ve had good results with the Shaver lifters in BBC engines.

Keith Morganstein wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:42 pm

tjs44 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:39 pm Shaver industries make the Comp Pontiac hyd roller lifters,I wonder if he does any other makes for Comp?They have been the best for the pontiac engines.Tom

Shaver makes the comp Short travel lifter. Randy Malik told me about them some years ago. I’ve had good results with the Shaver lifters in BBC engines.

I have the Comp Short Travel hyd lifters built by Shaver in my BBC with no issues. Have another set going in my new SBC. A good friend and very successful racer assembles those by measuring and matching all the components by hand.

Mikej26 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:58 pm Well I went ahead and replaced the Morel 5044's with a set of Isky/Johnson HPx needleless 2075HYFT's and the valve train is now OEM quite and smooth as glass.

I guess that settles it. I'm not using any other lifters as far as hydraulic rollers are concerned.

You read through and listened to all the advice from this post and the results were as claimed . Good choice .
Scott

^^^^ just put a solid in it stop screwing around with trying to get a HR to do a mans job. Laziness....

Mikej26 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:50 pm

6.50camaro wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:26 pm Am I missing something , but using a lifter that is designed and labeled race model (Morel 5044) Then complain when its noisy on the street. Did I miss the memo . Dan

Was beyond noise. Some were collapsing and not recovering. I'm fine with a bit of noise, but dysfunction is unacceptable

Were they used on the street?

Don't you have to multiply the rocker ratio into the .050 per turn at the nut formula? I found that when pivoting off the valve tip the stud being in the middle of the lever (rocker arm), the movement on the push-rod side is more than the middle. On my 7/16 studs my preload use to be about .080 per turn (.020) per quarter turn. I'll have to check my notes but I'm pretty sure of this.

Cobra720 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:46 am Don't you have to multiply the rocker ratio into the .050 per turn at the nut formula? I found that when pivoting off the valve tip the stud being in the middle of the lever (rocker arm), the movement on the push-rod side is more than the middle. On my 7/16 studs my preload use to be about .080 per turn (.020) per quarter turn. I'll have to check my notes but I'm pretty sure of this.

Agreed that there is a lever action in play with stud mounted rockers. My rockers are shaft mounted so the adjustment is directly over the pushrod and lifter. I tried setting them at the recommended preload as well as adding more preload to compensate for my lack of pivot with the shafts. Made no difference.

An interesting finding upon disassembly was that due to some lifters collapsing while the engine was sitting I had a pushrod fall out of the pushrod cup on the rocker arm. Fortunately no real damage occurred. New lifters in place, zero issues. Runs better all around.

For the record, I’m not saying the morel 5044’s are garbage, I just personally had bad luck with them on this occasion. I could just be that unlucky 1 in 1000 or perhaps something about my engine isn’t well suited to them operating properly such as lifter bore tolerance being to big or something. Whatever the case, I’ve gotten some closure on this annoying episode and am happy to be able to put my attention elsewhere on this build. Thanks to everyone that responded.