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Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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BradH
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Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by BradH » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:21 pm

I noticed a picture of an aftermarket LS-type spring & retainer combination where the OD of the retainer is so much smaller than the spring itself that probably .100-.125" of the spring was showing around the circumference of the retainer.

The retainer was either ti or tool steel, so I don't know how much difference that makes. However, I don't recall having seen a spring & retainer setup before that left so much of the outer coil of the spring exposed/unsupported. Is this more common than I expected? Thanks - Brad
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by ProPower engines » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:57 pm

In some cases depending on the spring rate used.
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by modok » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:23 am

I've seen a few like that lately, like the new chrysler hemi
Only with hardened steel retainers.

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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by BradH » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:00 pm

Pic that I was referring to in my 1st post. Maybe the exposed section of the spring isn't as wide as I originally thought, but it's still a pretty significant difference in ODs.
.
LS spring_small retainer.jpeg
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by Walter R. Malik » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:03 pm

I have never encountered a problem with the retainer being a smaller O.D. as long as it covers 60% of the wire diameter and the step in the retainer is correct.
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by BLSTIC » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:29 pm

If the contact point is greater than half way between the id and od of the spring (covers half or more) then the spring won't be trying to roll past it. Add a small amount because things move and you should be ok. I certainly wouldn't be having the retainer any wider than the widest ground surface on the spring, that's just extra valve weight for zero purpose

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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by geraldtson » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:11 pm

Yes its more common than you'd think. Just another way of selling you less of something and trying to convince you your getting more. I've been having hard time finding the bigger or Correct size titanium retainers here lately. Seems every time you get really good and satisfied with something somebody's gonna come along and screw it up! Most,not all but most of the performance industry seems to be heading in this direction nowadays. They want to feed you Horse Shit and convince you it's Ice Cream! The retainer in the picture seems questionably small. I would be searching for a better fitting one.

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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by MadBill » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:12 pm

Delving into the S/T archives, I find a related question re spring ID vs. retainer step OD: https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2642

Anyone know why the 'scalloped' retainer design appears to have vanished?
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by BOOT » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:47 pm

Depends on the retainer material, spring load, if spring is chamfered and the use I imagine. For example I have some comp moly and tool steel retainers and the only diff is the TS use less material because it's stronger.

Someone on here(I think) once posted bout how the retainer stress point is not at the edge and as long as you have enough material it won't pull thru the springs then your good, provided the retainer is strong enough for the load to not buckle. Not worded that way of course.
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by Warp Speed » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:58 pm

geraldtson wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:11 pm
Yes its more common than you'd think. Just another way of selling you less of something and trying to convince you your getting more. I've been having hard time finding the bigger or Correct size titanium retainers here lately. Seems every time you get really good and satisfied with something somebody's gonna come along and screw it up! Most,not all but most of the performance industry seems to be heading in this direction nowadays. They want to feed you Horse Shit and convince you it's Ice Cream! The retainer in the picture seems questionably small. I would be searching for a better fitting one.
That's how most proper retainers are made these days. Anything over 60% of the spring diameter is just wasted material and added weight.

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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by steve cowan » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:34 pm

ti retainers 007.JPG
ti retainers 010.JPG
i run these on my 383 streeter for 12 months
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by paulzig » Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:57 pm

What about things like retainer press/interference fit into the spring, or is that not the recommended thing anymore?
Looking around for retainers for a particular spring that I had here and all I could find was a retainer with .020 clearance

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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by steve cowan » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:48 pm

paulzig wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:57 pm
What about things like retainer press/interference fit into the spring, or is that not the recommended thing anymore?
Looking around for retainers for a particular spring that I had here and all I could find was a retainer with .020 clearance
Good question
The spring and retainer I put up fits perfectly with each other, no interference or excessive clearance, there is no excessive wear pattern on retainer either just what I would expect to see.
I have some flat tappet stuff I am using at the moment with a spring rate of 420lb/in that comes apart easy and some comp springs and retainers with way less that is tight but the parts are spose to be compatible, I don't have a proper answer so hopefully, Walter, Jay or Bill could enlighten us :D
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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by makin chips » Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:30 pm

paulzig wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:57 pm
What about things like retainer press/interference fit into the spring, or is that not the recommended thing anymore?
Looking around for retainers for a particular spring that I had here and all I could find was a retainer with .020 clearance
I was always told/taught that you should be able to turn the spring over and the retainer fall off. If it doesn't, something isn't right.

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Re: Spring retainer OD way smaller than spring OD?

Post by BradH » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:35 pm

paulzig wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:57 pm
What about things like retainer press/interference fit into the spring, or is that not the recommended thing anymore?
Looking around for retainers for a particular spring that I had here and all I could find was a retainer with .020 clearance
One of the things that is surprising is how close -- or not -- the recommended retainers for a variety of springs match the dimensions of the associated spring. Some companies pair up springs with retainers that are .005" +/- within the spec for each step of the spring. Others seem to put very little effort to minimize the clearances between the spring & retainer... scary loose IMO in some cases.
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