Ring Seal

[ProPower engines]

Hey guys
Just want some opinions regarding personal experience regarding Total seal rings either gapless or nor
and too much oil on the rings during assembly. I know the reasons but had a customer assemble a short that never sealed up right.
Total seal sells a compound called Quick Seat for a reason and when I explained it to him about not using lube on
the rings he shit and said no way. Again I know better but like most DYI'ers I point them here to read up on stuff
before hand.

What do the mass's have for him??

Dave

[modok]

I'd say if you want to use total seal gapless second rings, then IMO, defer responsibility to the total seal company.
I'd say, follow THEIR directions, and if it doesn't perform, it's their fault, not yours.
it's a good company and they make a lot of rings, of many types, but it's choose your own adventure.....
I have not found a use for the gapless second ring myself, but I have heard some others are making good use of them in some oddball applications.
Rings really are a ritual. The kind of rings, the cylinder prep, the lube used....it's a ritual, it's a combo. You find a combo that works, stick to it. You will also find some that don't, and that's painful but good to know.

[rustbucket79]

Rings not seating (with a professional hone) is pretty much unheard of these days. What did the assembler do wrong, or the person who broke the engine in?
I've used the quick seat with great results, but a film of oil on the bores plus a couple of drops to lube the ring grooves seems to do the same job with less effort and expense. The quick seat will tell a novice their bore cleaning is inadequate

[jake197000]

no such thing as too clean

[modok]

The second ring in MOST applications functions primarily as an oil scraper.
Meaning if it isn't working you get oil consumption, but not necessarily blow by.

Another thing I now believe, far as switching rings on any given piston, is if the piston is more or less dimensioned for old d-wall iron rings....use iron rings, and if it's dimensioned for more modern...(usually thinner or reduced wall) steel rings, use steel rings.
Steel is slightly less flexible than iron, and tho it is slight it can bite you both ways.

Similar truths probably do exist when making a ring gapless. it will be more flexible, and that might be good, or it might be bad, depending on the actual sizes and materials.

Using a gapless second I would also be careful not to use a top ring that require lengthy break-in, as the gapless second ring may prevent the top ring from getting enough load to break-in right. In the past total seal sold a lot of individual rings, so you make your OWN combination, for better or worse

[BigBro74]

no such thing as too clean

This^^^^
I usually use their regular moly file fit sets(Howard’s sells them as a house brand but they come in total seal package reasonable ...) . Never have used quick seat. And I admit I also can’t bring myself to put them in dry.(I know I know...) I use a light smear of regular trans fluid... seem to seal right up - no complaints from me about their products. I have only used about 15-20 sets- I’m just a weekender—

[MadBill]

I'd say if you want to use total seal gapless second rings, then IMO, defer responsibility to the total seal company.
I'd say, follow THEIR directions, and if it doesn't perform, it's their fault, not yours.
it's a good company and they make a lot of rings, of many types, but it's choose your own adventure.....
I have not found a use for the gapless second ring myself, but I have heard some others are making good use of them in some oddball applications.
Rings really are a ritual. The kind of rings, the cylinder prep, the lube used....it's a ritual, it's a combo. You find a combo that works, stick to it. You will also find some that don't, and that's painful but good to know.

A friend of mine had his Alfa Romeo rebuilt with new cylinder liners and pistons, specifying Gapless rings. After a few hundred miles it started burning oil, ~ 500 mi/qt. When he tore it down the gapless rings (all intact) were in the second grooves and all the top rings were broken, some in many pieces. It had 9:1 CR and always used 93 Octane fuel. The Megasquirt system was well-tuned with conservative timing and never a whisper of knock. I don't know if a second groove Gapless differs from a top one but I can envision nothing good coming from using them in the second groove...

[modok]

It would be a more useful data point if we knew the size and materials of those rings.
As I was saying about dimensions, materials and flexibility
probably the size was not large enough for the materials thus there was TOO much flex.

[Jeff Lee]

Hey guys
Just want some opinions regarding personal experience regarding Total seal rings either gapless or nor
and too much oil on the rings during assembly. I know the reasons but had a customer assemble a short that never sealed up right.
Total seal sells a compound called Quick Seat for a reason and when I explained it to him about not using lube on
the rings he shit and said no way. Again I know better but like most DYI'ers I point them here to read up on stuff
before hand.

What do the mass's have for him??

Dave

Total Seal recommends light amount of break in oil on the rings even if using quick seat. Call TS and discuss w/ Keith Jones.

[modok]

I remember one time a guy brought in a VW diesel with broken top rings.
Turns out the gas and diesel versions of that engine use the same SIZE ring, but of course not the same material.

[n2xlr8n]

I'm not building engines for a living; I build them in my garage, mostly HP street/strip stuff with either nitrous, boost, or both.

I've used Quick Seat on every engine I've built in the last 13 years or so. I like it.

I place a dime sized drop of oil on the skirt, just enough on the ring to be able to see it, and install the rings dry as a bone. Never had one issue.

I used TS gapless top on every build except two, with vacuum pumps (~6").

[Dave Koehler]

Hey guys
Just want some opinions regarding personal experience regarding Total seal rings either gapless or nor
and too much oil on the rings during assembly. I know the reasons but had a customer assemble a short that never sealed up right.
Total seal sells a compound called Quick Seat for a reason and when I explained it to him about not using lube on
the rings he shit and said no way. Again I know better but like most DYI'ers I point them here to read up on stuff
before hand.

What do the mass's have for him??

Dave

This is an If all else fails idea.
Once every ten years or so I would have a customer that assembled his own stuff have a consumption problem,
These were blocks using Sealed power moly rings, sunnen hone, yada yada.
Since there are a lot of unknowns on what they were doing on their end I would suggest to change over to some non detergent 30 wt., drive it for a while and see what happens.
This would avoid having to tear it down if it worked.
Fortunately and I have no idea why but that always worked.
They would then switch back to their favorite oil.
Go figure.

[BigBro74]

Dave this is great experiential knowledge- thanks! By non detergent is it just regular old non detergent 30 wt oil or is do you use a race type oil??
And BTW — where did u learn it???
Thanks Jason

[Dave Koehler]

Regular old school off the shelf non detergent 30wt.

[Schurkey]

I'd say if you want to use total seal gapless second rings, then IMO, defer responsibility to the total seal company.
I'd say, follow THEIR directions, and if it doesn't perform, it's their fault, not yours.

Sounds good to me!

it's a good company and they make a lot of rings, of many types,

I didn't know they MADE rings. I thought they contracted with other companies to make the rings, they just put them in a Total Seal box.





It would make me crazy to install rings with NO lube. I figure there's got to be something on the ring sides and piston lands at least, and I accomplish that by installing the rings on the pistons with a little ATF on my hands. As for the cylinder walls, the last thing I do is wipe them with a lint-free paper towel dipped in ATF. There's at least a hint of lube on the walls, but not enough to drip. Some guys dip the piston 'n' rings in a bucket of engine oil, and that I'll not do.

Non-detergent oil is a new one on me. I have heard of blocking the radiator with cardboard, and running the engine under load to 230+ degrees. Remove cardboard before engine actually boils over.

And of course, I'm old enough to have been told about dumping Bon Ami glass cleaner ("mild mineral abrasives") down the carb at fast idle. No, thanks.