Ring Seal

[MadBill]

A block heater is a pretty simple approach...

[Alan Roehrich]

I have never had Keith or Kevin tell me to install rings dry, ever. I do use Kwik Seat. I usually use Dexron, although sparingly, I lube the rings and grooves lightly, place a drop or two on the skirts, and the cylinders are already wiped with a lint free cloth saturated with Dexron and wiped dry. I use mineral base oils on start up, rarely use non detergent oils anymore.

The thing with gapless rings is they have specific applications, and otherwise, aren't of much use, and can cause more harm than good. There are applications for gapless top rings. I never use gapless second rings, I also use a Napier cut for oil scraping, in any performance engine. We can run as low as 8# tangential oil ring tension and have great ring seal and no oil consumption on wet sump Stock Eliminator and Super Stock engines. The Stock Eliminator engines are not even allowed crank case evac systems.

Have you ever torn down a sealed up, properly running engine with no oil consumption, and seen it look like an engine being assembled by someone who dunks a piston in a can full of oil and installs it dripping and flooded? I never have. That is an old method, it dates back to my father's time, when they built flat heads, with chrome rings, and 30# of oil tension, ending up with a fresh engine that required 40+ ft/lb of torque to rotate when finished. Is anyone building engines that way?

[modok]

A few, but not really my choice, that's what they want.
I just put together a old ford 300 straight six with wide iron rings, takes a lot of force to turn it over and the sound the rings make sliding through the bores is depressing, but...... it worked then it will work now.

[Geoff2]

I use running in oil to coat the rings & bore.....because that is what will be lubricating the engine when it gets fired up.

[cjperformance]

Hey guys
Just want some opinions regarding personal experience regarding Total seal rings either gapless or nor
and too much oil on the rings during assembly. I know the reasons but had a customer assemble a short that never sealed up right.
Total seal sells a compound called Quick Seat for a reason and when I explained it to him about not using lube on
the rings he shit and said no way. Again I know better but like most DYI'ers I point them here to read up on stuff
before hand.

What do the mass's have for him??

Dave

The clenliness and tune has way more to do with ring bed than the ammount of oil used.
Seriously, you can use a smear or you can dunk the whole assembly in oil, pretty much any publicly accessible engine oil available and it will run in fine.
If its rich it wont. If they nanny it it wont, if the timing is not right it wont.
All the oil, no oil, smear, dunk, soak, powder, spray etc hype is just that.
Clean it, oil it, have a known close to correct tune before fire up and it will be fine.

[hoodeng]

You are about right Craig, whatever turns engine re-conditioners on and works for them ,,. One thing is obvious though is that rings will bed with a wide range of installation procedures. I have seen the AMG video of engine assembly where the whole piston assy is dunked in a bucket, down to a whiff of crc and some lube on the skirt only. Although completely bone dry can contribute to micro welding of the ring seat,mind you we see a lot of fully coated rings and grooves now.

Your caveat of run in is far more important than the installation process. Starting a fresh motor then sitting back idling it to death while admiring your work is a sure fire way of glazing a bore, as well as the other misnomers of set up mentioned, Bores don't get better once they are glazed.
I mentioned in a previous post about de-glazing powder sold by a reputable tractor manufacturer, it was an answer in its day, not now.

I could tell a story of an episode that actually happened [early 70's] where someone only understood part of a conversation that was held in a pub [location may have contributed to the misunderstanding] the story is stuff of legends of misadventure and mayhem, it is still told between the guys that were at that table, [not in the presence of the miscreant for fear of retribution] he is still a chunky boy!

Cheers.

[bentvalves]

1:18 seconds

Im guilty of using more oil than needed in past times as well. But, if the base map/tune are good, and it's started and not allowed to sit there and helplessly idle, the rings are going to bed even if it was over-lubed. They just aren't going to bed on the starter is all.

another thing to keep in mind is how long is some of this shit going to sit before it even gets installed into a vehicle in some cases?

wd-40 on the cylinder bore isn't going to cut it hanging out god knows where for a few months.

[ProPower engines]

When I used my 1st set of TS rings way back yes I was told to wash the bores and use the quick seat and a dab of lube on the skirt and thats it.
Now this was in a stock block build and have done it that way ever since.
Now I guess I said it wrong when I said no lube on the rings as in drop it in a bucket of oil or what ever but that was the way it was put to me and have stuck with it ever since.
Now when installing the rings on the pistons there is a small but adequate amount of lube from oily hands so to speak
but not more then what I can run on with my fingers as they go in the grooves.

In this case I had no control over the assembly but regardless when it was run the blow by meter never got to 0 but it was only about 10 minutes of run time as it wiped the bearings out and the OP dropped a ton during the 1st bit at 2000 RPM
but as mentioned the instructions were clear about the finish required on the bores and that was strictly adhered to as
it was a darton sleeved alloy block.
Now again the other issue I discovered today was the ring choice was also different then the bore finish required which
I am not sure of as that has not been divulged at this point. But as I mentioned I did not assemble it.
The customer did

Regardless the issue with cam bearing clearance has been rectified as well as the oil entry to the bearing. It was a Pontiac alloy block which used the stock oil feed location with a big roller and springs to match but there is more.

The owner said the cam was tight when he assembled it which was the beginning of the bearing failure and luckily the cam was able to be saved but the bearings needed to be modified as I would have line bored the cam tunnel to start with and went with a larger bearing OD to solve the cam clearance issue. Which at the time I had no idea there was an issue tillI seen the block and the aftermath of the attempt to run in the engine.
After which the cam tunnel was found center off towards the rear end about.0015" as was evident from the misaligned cam bore machining which left a ridge in the cam bore

Now its happy and living a better life after some TLC.



But after its all said and done the 1st attempt I am told was not long enough to get the job done now that I talked to the dyno operator as the OP dropped too far to carry on anyway but it never got any load on it from the get go.


Thanks again guys for all your time spent replying and your consideration.

[cjperformance]

I really think a lot of people get to wary and overthink some things. And at the same time dont pay attention to the important stuff like clearances, clenliness, tune etc.
Look at how an auto factory does it, everthing is 'within a known tolerance' , the tune is preset and known, basically that engine/vehicle is aimed to be ready to drive off that assembly line and up the customers drive way. Checks along the way help prove this, ie QC.
Yes QC and process fails from time to time in large scale production but if looked at on a percentage that would say that failure in small business 'should' extremely rarely happen particularly seeing that the majority of factory workers are (with no disrespect) not skilled mechanics or engineers but are assemblers following a preset guideline that may not even pick up on something that could be a problem as they done know about the engineering aspect of the parts.
Most builders rush, as in ProPowers eg of a tight cam , why did the customer/assembler even continue assembly/ let it go when that was discovered!!??!!
No one is perfect but paying attention to all aspects and doing it properly the first time goes a long way.
When i do a build, assembly, whatever I try to make sure everything is done properly and I test oil pressure, fuel, ignition etc etc along the way as required, then I dont start that engine until I am confident that I could essentially start it up and drive it immediately on a track, road or interstate voyage, if I dont think that could happen for whatever reason, I dont start it! Its that simple.
I have never addressed a ring problem that was the fault of too much prelube. Zero lube and no immediate oil pressure, flow, throw off yes!, but not by over lubing.
Every (bar the dry assembled engine!) ring problem I have ever dealt with was a tune or other problem of some kind ranging from rich carb, no power valve, wrong cam timing, problems getting oil pressure, coolant/oil leaks etc which lead to long idle times while fault finding or fuel washing the bores.
Yes some oils can slow the run in process but in this case if its loaded up enough initially there is no issue.
Oil does not inhibit ring break in full stop. Builders, tuners and customers who are impatient or have inadequate knowledge most definitely do!

[Belgian1979]

This makes me remember about a comment that big joe made with my first engine that failed with scuffed pistons. He said I didn't oil it enough...

[GARY C]

It seems to me that if your going to use the Quick Seat you would want to lube the bore, install the piston to BDC and then put the QS on the bore above the piston so that you don't scrape off the QS with the oil ring and second ring, then the oil is under the rings on the bore where it would be in normal engine operation.

Here is TS how to video.

[allencr267]

Everything seems to work, from being drowned to being an orphan of oil, so looking at a ring that hasn't sealed/seated oughta tell us more about why it diden't.
Never seen it but know it's true: an unprepped ring scrapes/gouges the land so it or its burr or loose chip unseats the ring, letting carbon buildup unless worked hard.

also, thanks for the BMW clip, 8++ HP/CI with, to my eyes, mirror smooth zero determinable hone in the walls.

[bentvalves]

2:30 seconds - pourin' it on.

[rustbucket79]

The quick seat ends up in the root of the hone, it actually takes a considerable effort to rub the powder into the bores. It's secondary purpose is to disclose a dirty bore with different colour.

[ClassAct]

2:30 seconds - pourin' it on.

No reason for all that oil. I haven't done that in decades and I've never seen micro welding or any other signs there wasn't enough lubrication for the rings on start up. I also don't use what looks like engine oil for assembly either.