Fuel Quality Testing

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midnightbluS10
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by midnightbluS10 »

Roundybout wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:32 pm Another thing to consider is there's no separate tanks (usually) of the different octanes advertised at the station. It's a large tank of lower octane fuel and a smaller tank of higher octane. To get 89 mid grade it's blended right at the pump from the two tanks. Who knows how accurate that is between different stations. Some higher altitude regions have 85 octane as the base and it's blended up to the higher octanes at the pump. What the cheap stuff is composed of or the higher octane for that matter and how long it's been there is anyone's guess. You'll often see when a station is out of 87 they only have higher octane available and vice versa with no mid grades. AV gas at least has more stringent quality controls because it's bad to have a plane fall out of the sky due to poor quality fuel. The only thing it has going for it is the octane though and isn't formulated for passenger cars. The list of differences other than just octane can be substantial.
I've seen way too many stations with three underground storage tanks to believe that. That's one of those myths that's stuck around like the "010/020 high nickel blocks" and all of the other automotive myths. More people will tell you that, than will agree that they splash mix midgrade fuel at the pump when you pull the handle on midgrade fuel.

If that, were actually the case, why would they have 3 tanks at every station I've ever remembered looking at?
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bigjoe1 wrote:By the way, I had a long talk with Harold(Brookshire) last year at the PRI show. We met at the airport and he told me everything he knew about everything.It was a nice visit. JOE SHERMAN RACING
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by MadBill »

Here's what my fuel company of choice says on the subject:
"Does Ultra 94 contain ethanol? Does Petro-Canada still offer an ethanol-free gasoline?"
"Ultra 94 contains ethanol. Due to the fact that various fuel grades are blended at the point of sale, most grades of Petro-Canada fuel may now contain up to 10% ethanol. This represents a change from the previous state, where premium fuel was ethanol-free at Petro-Canada."


Also: "Dear-----,

Thank you for contacting Petro-Canada Customer care regarding gases.

As per your request, we would like to inform that we offer four gasoline grades – 87, 89, 91 and 94 octane.

• Ultra 94™ is Petro-Canada's 94 octane fuel contains up to 10% ethanol. It also has a Research Octane Number of 101.5 and a Motor Octane Number of 88.

• SuperClean is Petro-Canada's premium 91 octane gasoline. It's does not contain ethanol. Also, Tactrol is our exclusive deposit control additive that acts as a detergent to clean and prevent the build-up of harmful deposits. Tactrol is used in all grades of Petro-Canada gasoline — including RegularClean, PlusClean, SuperClean, Ultra 94, and WinterGas™.

SuperClean and Ultra 94 come fortified with an extra dosage of Tactrol — so it can actually remove stubborn deposits, help restore your engine's performance, and keep it clean. No other company uses Tactrol except Petro-Canada.

Should you have more inquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us via Email.
Thank you for your business."
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midnightbluS10
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by midnightbluS10 »

Looks like I read something incorrectly and you are correct. Sorry about that!

I swear what I read said that mixing it was a myth. In fact, it said midgrade from the refinery is a myth and it's made on the fly, at the point of sale.

So you are correct. My apologies.
JC -

bigjoe1 wrote:By the way, I had a long talk with Harold(Brookshire) last year at the PRI show. We met at the airport and he told me everything he knew about everything.It was a nice visit. JOE SHERMAN RACING
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by David Redszus »

RCJ wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:34 pm If the specific gravity of fuel A is .711,fuel B .728. Fuel b should require larger jet?
Perhaps, maybe yes, maybe no.

Specific gravity alone does not determine the air/fuel ratio; also needed is the stoich value.

A real world example:
VP Export Blend
SpG....0.781
Stoich..13.63

compared to
VP C9/Vintage
SpG.....0.718
Stoich..14.82

Based on their respective SpG, one might think Export blend would run richer.
But based on their respective Stoich values, one might think C9/vintage would run richer.

Both thinkers would be wrong. When both SpG and Stoich are considered, the enrichment index
is 10.65 and 10.64 respectively. They are virtually the same as far as jetting goes. Even though one has
3.6% oxygen and the other has none.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by GARY C »

midnightbluS10 wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:18 pm Looks like I read something incorrectly and you are correct. Sorry about that!

I swear what I read said that mixing it was a myth. In fact, it said midgrade from the refinery is a myth and it's made on the fly, at the point of sale.

So you are correct. My apologies.
The different tanks must be for the different base fuels, I was told that higher octane pump gas get it's octane boost from more ethanol so I did a gayriged test with 87 and 93 but could not see any difference in the amount of ethanol at least in a small sample.

I also have noticed that a lot of stations in Texas have added a e15 nozel at the pump but I never saw them tear up the parking lot to add an additional tank.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by Roundybout »

I believe the 3 or more tanks are just extra capacity for the amount of 87 they sell compared to the higher octane. One guy I talked to who was delivering a load said the 93 or higher octane can sit in there for weeks until it's replenished while he's there weekly to deliver 87 octane. I also asked why the different colors on the tank caps then? That's just to help identify which tank to fill. Especially if the station sells diesel.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by PbFlinger »

If the stations in my area are any indication, I figure I’m getting 87 at best no matter which nozzle or button I choose. You can fool me, but you’re not fooling my engine. Been tuning around it for years. I’ve decided that any combo intended to be gasoline fueled at a public station is an 87 octane combo. The E85 around here tests pretty consistent, with slight seasonal variation.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by n2xlr8n »

The old reliable (and only one for 100 miles) E-85 station shut down recently.

I had tested anywhere from 65-80% from there, and tuned accordingly along with a GM flex sensor inline.

When I asked why they weren't offering E-85 any longer, the owner stated they were getting sued due to engine damage suffered by a kid with a turbo car.

I thought b.s..... but I can vouch for the crappy fuel.

Now I have to either replace my ID2200 injectors, lower the boost and retune or buy E-90 by the drum.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by quickd100 »

My little brother works for Magellan pipeline as an operator. ( He blends fuel, fills tankers, computer work, Ect.) Up here (Grand Forks,ND) they get 2 grades of fuel in by pipeline, 85 octane and 91 octane. They blend 100% ethanol with the 85 octane to get 87 octane. The fuel when it leaves HAS to be a minimum 87 octane. Same with 91, it can be higher octane but not lower. There have been times where they overran the 91 and sold it as 87. He would tell me which stations had the (good) 87 now and then.
A friend of mine owns a couple stations and bulk service in the area. Another friend brought a stock resto built 440 Mopar to me to Dyno, the compression had been dropped to 8.9-1. I told him to pick up some 91 for the Dyno pulls. The motor was a little down on power and the 91 didn't smell right. I asked him about the fuel he brought. He'd picked it up from my friend with the bulk service. I called him and asked him about it. He says wellll, he bought it out of the Mandan refinery and they have a contract to make race fuel for I think it was Sunnoco. Apparently, the overrun was labeled 91, my friend said it tested 102-103 on his old test engine.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by No Limits »

rebelrouser wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:42 am Lots more to fuel than just octane. I use specific gravity, and this test kit. Pump gas goes bad quick, and reed vapor pressure is just as important as octane, when tuning a pump gas engine. Liquid fuel does not burn, it has to vaporize. They change the reed Vapor pressure a couple times a year at the pump. Also a test kit to see what the alcohol content is. Alcohol is mixed by the jobber not the refinery, at least that is what I was told, so the content varies a lot. Most manufactures are requiring these types of fuel tests on drivability issues when cars are under warranty.


https://www.otctools.com/products/gasol ... esting-kit

I have read all the great information that has been talked about here and it’s a lot to make me feel insecure about on my tuning of pump gas engines. I’m doing a lot of pump gas high performance engine building currently and some of them being boosted applications. So to add to my post my questions now are as follows... I have no choice to use a race fuel with these customers so pump gas is the only fuel they will be using. The area in which I live in here in Pennsylvania has a few gas stations I use to purchase 93 octane and I feel that each one varies from one time to the next. I don’t know the sources in which they purchase their fuel from so I need to have a way to test the fuel I purchase quickly and confidently to know how to tune each one accordingly. Then once I find the most consistent gas station with 93 octane I will direct my customers to that station or stations for their future fuel. As I feel this is my best solution to to this obviously not confidently solving problem. Because I didn’t know a lot about pump fuel as I have in this post from all contributors it raises my interest in learning and needing to know more about pump gasoline such as Reed Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, and Research Octane Number. So besides the OTC brand quality tester what paper or internet sources does everyone recommend to learn more about pump fuel? Also besides OTC tool what other quick analyzing tools are out there that are good? A friend recently told me the Zeltex brand tool is a decent one to use as it’s quick and gives you a solid octane of the fuel sample. As each of these tools are pricey I want to buy the one or two if needed to give me confidence in my tuning with the fuel I’m currently working with. Thanks
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by MadBill »

I had no idea there was such a device! undoubtedly pricey, but likely well worth it for high end shops building cutting-edge engines. https://www.zeltex.com/products/fuel/zx-101xl/

Another approach would be promoting the use by one's customers of a good knock sensor system such as https://www.google.com/search?q=knock+s ... e&ie=UTF-8
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by ijames »

MadBill wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:40 am I had no idea there was such a device! undoubtedly pricey, but likely well worth it for high end shops building cutting-edge engines. https://www.zeltex.com/products/fuel/zx-101xl/
Their website left out some specs and the price so I did the contact us thing and asked yesterday and a sales person called me today to talk. First, their standard pump gas calibration is for unleaded gas with R+M/2 from 87 to 97 octane. He said that they can't detect lead compounds so cannot deal with leaded fuel at all. They have done custom calibrations for customers with unleaded race gas up to 100 octane. So far no one has asked to go higher but he didn't feel 104 would be a problem. One or two custom calibrations would probably be done at no cost, but of course you would have to talk with them. Their handheld device can store 10 different calibrations so you would get the standard pump gas cal plus any customs and could switch between them as desired. He told me the list price but asked that I post it as "in the ball park of $10,000". So, within reach of a pro racing team or perhaps a dyno shop but probably out of reach for a casual bracket racer unless a group got together to buy one. Hmm, wonder if local shop owners and racers in the pits would pay $25 or $50 per analysis - then you could pay one off in a mere 200-400 samples :mrgreen: . (Yes, if you were really going to do that there would be lots of other expenses like travel, buying certified gasolines to verify the calibration, probably sending the unit in once a year to be recertified, etc.) Anyway, just wanted to pass on what I learned.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by MadBill »

Just recalled the knock system name I was after: http://www.jandssafeguard.com/
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by n2xlr8n »

I've used a Knock Link for many years. It simply indicates the presence of knock.

The value nowdays is in the J & S Interceptor- for another $200, one can have active control.
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Re: Fuel Quality Testing

Post by BradH »

Not sure if this still falls under the intent of the topic: The difference in total ignition timing that made best power on a couple of my street/strip builds dyno tested many years apart got me wondering if the pump gas mixed 50/50 w/ 110 leaded race fuel used during the tests could have changed enough (my presumption was increased ethanol content) to account for why there was about a 3* difference, especially because I thought the later heads used had a better chamber design that might have actually reduced the timing required.

So, I did some online searches a couple of months back and came across this page with a couple of interesting docs linked from it on pump fuel quality (blending components and %s) for about the last 20 years: https://www.epa.gov/fuels-registration- ... -over-time.

There's a lot to dig through between the two, but the quick summary is that not only was there a significant change over the years with regard to the oxygenating agents being blended, but the ethanol % did increase significantly. So, even though my local Mid-Atlantic pumps have been stickered with "MAY CONTAIN UP TO 10% ETHANOL" for as far as I can remember since moving to where I am 20+ years ago, the fuels being blended "way back when" didn't have nearly the amount of ethanol at that time as they do now.

That "inspired" me to do some additional online searching for the impact of different ethanol %s on ignition timing requirements and power output. I wish I'd remembered to capture the URL to the specific doc these charts came from, but here are a couple that I found which seem to validate my hypothesis that the difference in the fuel used over the years could have very well been the reason why the best timing found on the dyno varied as much as it did.
E0 vs E10 timing.jpg
E0-E10-E20-E40-E60 timing_output.jpg
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