Pro Stock What If - Carb/EFI

[Mike Laws]

NHRA mandated the carburetors or everyone would have been injected 30 years ago. Same goes with NASCAR.

In drag race classes with no mandate; why do the majority still run carburetors?

They’re slower because NHRA spec’ed the entire system to be slower. NASCAR did the same.

I would have preferred to see NHRA allow any EFI system, then we would know for sure. To be fair about Nascar; the carbs were spec'd as well. At least one team 'played' with a Dominator shortly before the EFI-mandate and gained quite a bit of power.

[arlancam509]

Who decides what rules are in place in NHRA Pro Stock? Do the drivers get a say in it? Are the people making the decisions, actual car/engine people like us? I assume the rules changes in Pro Stock were simply done for money reasons. Seems to me they are saving money on the front just to lose it on the back. I say 'losing' because I don't know a single person that likes Pro Stock - if they don't like it, they aren't buying tickets. I know that is a poor way to come to a conclusion, but the volume of people I interact with is probably a little above average and quite large.

If I was making the rules, I would let them have full reign over the ECU. Sure it would be a 'spec' ECU, but let them change everything - by 'everything', I mean the tune. Are they allowed this much at least? I should know this, but I don't.

RPM limit? hell no. Let the valve springs dictate rpm!

I still love Pro Stock (it is my favorite), but I just don't invest my time in it anymore. Will I continue to go to the US Nationals every year (been going since 1990), absolutely! I will be glued to my seat for Pro Stock and go to the bathroom and get beer refills when pro stock hawg is next up.

[midnightbluS10]

Who decides what rules are in place in NHRA Pro Stock? Do the drivers get a say in it? Are the people making the decisions, actual car/engine people like us? I assume the rules changes in Pro Stock were simply done for money reasons. Seems to me they are saving money on the front just to lose it on the back. I say 'losing' because I don't know a single person that likes Pro Stock - if they don't like it, they aren't buying tickets. I know that is a poor way to come to a conclusion, but the volume of people I interact with is probably a little above average and quite large.

If I was making the rules, I would let them have full reign over the ECU. Sure it would be a 'spec' ECU, but let them change everything - by 'everything', I mean the tune. Are they allowed this much at least? I should know this, but I don't.

RPM limit? hell no. Let the valve springs dictate rpm!

I still love Pro Stock (it is my favorite), but I just don't invest my time in it anymore. Will I continue to go to the US Nationals every year (been going since 1990), absolutely! I will be glued to my seat for Pro Stock and go to the bathroom and get beer refills when pro stock hawg is next up.

Where was the money saving in this? Switching to efi, new hoods, new intakes, etc...means they were spending money...money they wouldn't have had to spend had they used carbs like the season before.

So how would that save money on the front end?

[GARY C]

Who decides what rules are in place in NHRA Pro Stock? Do the drivers get a say in it? Are the people making the decisions, actual car/engine people like us? I assume the rules changes in Pro Stock were simply done for money reasons. Seems to me they are saving money on the front just to lose it on the back. I say 'losing' because I don't know a single person that likes Pro Stock - if they don't like it, they aren't buying tickets. I know that is a poor way to come to a conclusion, but the volume of people I interact with is probably a little above average and quite large.

If I was making the rules, I would let them have full reign over the ECU. Sure it would be a 'spec' ECU, but let them change everything - by 'everything', I mean the tune. Are they allowed this much at least? I should know this, but I don't.

RPM limit? hell no. Let the valve springs dictate rpm!

I still love Pro Stock (it is my favorite), but I just don't invest my time in it anymore. Will I continue to go to the US Nationals every year (been going since 1990), absolutely! I will be glued to my seat for Pro Stock and go to the bathroom and get beer refills when pro stock hawg is next up.

Where was the money saving in this? Switching to efi, new hoods, new intakes, etc...means they were spending money...money they wouldn't have had to spend had they used carbs like the season before.

So how would that save money on the front end?

Not to mention a completely new R&D program.

The same was said when NASCAR dropped compression to 12.1, now the teams had to throw out the old and start new development, similar issue with E15 fuel, my understanding is Sunnoco will not buy back the leftover after a race like they would with race fuel.

These teams will spend every dollar they can get their hands on but the changes would hurt lessor teams that don't have the big dollar budgets.

[arlancam509]

Who decides what rules are in place in NHRA Pro Stock? Do the drivers get a say in it? Are the people making the decisions, actual car/engine people like us? I assume the rules changes in Pro Stock were simply done for money reasons. Seems to me they are saving money on the front just to lose it on the back. I say 'losing' because I don't know a single person that likes Pro Stock - if they don't like it, they aren't buying tickets. I know that is a poor way to come to a conclusion, but the volume of people I interact with is probably a little above average and quite large.

If I was making the rules, I would let them have full reign over the ECU. Sure it would be a 'spec' ECU, but let them change everything - by 'everything', I mean the tune. Are they allowed this much at least? I should know this, but I don't.

RPM limit? hell no. Let the valve springs dictate rpm!

I still love Pro Stock (it is my favorite), but I just don't invest my time in it anymore. Will I continue to go to the US Nationals every year (been going since 1990), absolutely! I will be glued to my seat for Pro Stock and go to the bathroom and get beer refills when pro stock hawg is next up.

Where was the money saving in this? Switching to efi, new hoods, new intakes, etc...means they were spending money...money they wouldn't have had to spend had they used carbs like the season before.

So how would that save money on the front end?

This is an excellent question! That is basically what I was getting at - I don't see how it saved any money at all and I only seeing it costing the NHRA money in ticket revenue.

[Truckedup]

You need to follow WEC/ALMS/LeMans for any innovation and that’s where the factories are really trying some cool stuff.

MotoGP and F1 are still pretty loose as well and the factories are doing cool stuff there.

For top level, most open rules, naturally aspirated, then MotoGP is your ticket. They’re 4.75hp/ci + , tractable circuit engines, and they only get seven person season before being penalized. That’s like a 2300hp+ pro stocker, that can last a 1000 miles between rebuilds, and put that power through a contact patch the size of a 50 cent piece.

Most of the US based pro motorsports series are heavily spec’ed.

You're a real tech guy that like the latest high power and modern stuff....I've seen vintage bike road racing with 60 hp old pushrod lumps with smoking drum brakes and 4 inch wide tires putting on a great show...
Good racing is all about competition showing rider/driver skill...And not going so fast that it's hard to follow the action..

[Mike Laws]

I don't feel it would make one bit of difference. It would come down to who had the better tune up for that moment and spectators don't really have a sense for that kine of "inside baseball".

Pro Stock is so sterile from where it began that it's hardly worth watching. The only variety is in the body and paint colors. Just my opinion, but Pro Mod seems to be the main interest in door slammer classes.

This post could be the start of an interesting thread for a variety of reasons and fwiw: I agree with most of your message. PS was never on par with the nitro classes but it was certainly more popular 10, 20+ years ago than it is now. It's always been a class for us gearheads to relate to. The colorful personalities helped keep interest up and TV was more PS-friendly then.

Like you say, it's a sterile class and the efi/carb 'wars' could have at least added talking points among the gearheads. I also believe it would have helped car counts.

Someone on here mentioned that fuel injection would have eliminated carbs 30 years ago if mandates were not made. I'm no fan of mandates and believe the opposite would have happened in an open-rule situation. Certainly both systems would have had more development resulting in both being improved...

[ClassAct]

I don't feel it would make one bit of difference. It would come down to who had the better tune up for that moment and spectators don't really have a sense for that kine of "inside baseball".

Pro Stock is so sterile from where it began that it's hardly worth watching. The only variety is in the body and paint colors. Just my opinion, but Pro Mod seems to be the main interest in door slammer classes.

This post could be the start of an interesting thread for a variety of reasons and fwiw: I agree with most of your message. PS was never on par with the nitro classes but it was certainly more popular 10, 20+ years ago than it is now. It's always been a class for us gearheads to relate to. The colorful personalities helped keep interest up and TV was more PS-friendly then.

Like you say, it's a sterile class and the efi/carb 'wars' could have at least added talking points among the gearheads. I also believe it would have helped car counts.

Someone on here mentioned that fuel injection would have eliminated carbs 30 years ago if mandates were not made. I'm no fan of mandates and believe the opposite would have happened in an open-rule situation. Certainly both systems would have had more development resulting in both being improved...

The last paragraph is telling. Fear and greed are the order of the day in Glendora. A bunch of bean counting lawyers and propagandists running the show.

Let them compete, side by side. Surprisingly, the EFI were bitching the loudest to just get rid of carbs.

[digger]

Don't the sponsors dictate the rules

[Jim2527]

You need to follow WEC/ALMS/LeMans for any innovation and that’s where the factories are really trying some cool stuff.

MotoGP and F1 are still pretty loose as well and the factories are doing cool stuff there.

For top level, most open rules, naturally aspirated, then MotoGP is your ticket. They’re 4.75hp/ci + , tractable circuit engines, and they only get seven person season before being penalized. That’s like a 2300hp+ pro stocker, that can last a 1000 miles between rebuilds, and put that power through a contact patch the size of a 50 cent piece.

Most of the US based pro motorsports series are heavily spec’ed.

I looked up some F1 stats.... 10hp/ci (~1000hp/98cid) and per the rules engines last ~2,800 miles (7 race weekends)

[Mike Laws]

You need to follow WEC/ALMS/LeMans for any innovation and that’s where the factories are really trying some cool stuff.

MotoGP and F1 are still pretty loose as well and the factories are doing cool stuff there.

For top level, most open rules, naturally aspirated, then MotoGP is your ticket. They’re 4.75hp/ci + , tractable circuit engines, and they only get seven person season before being penalized. That’s like a 2300hp+ pro stocker, that can last a 1000 miles between rebuilds, and put that power through a contact patch the size of a 50 cent piece.

Most of the US based pro motorsports series are heavily spec’ed.

I looked up some F1 stats.... 10hp/ci (~1000hp/98cid) and per the rules engines last ~2,800 miles (7 race weekends)

It would make 1100 w/carbs.

[RW TECH]

You can't put the genie back in the bottle, but what if NHRA had allowed carbs and EFI to go head to head w/no restrictions to either? Did they miss a nice opportunity here?

IMHO; spectator interest would have been high (hood scoop vs no scoop would have been fun). It would have brought out the best of both camps in the technical side of our industry and made for some good racing.

I spent A LOT of time at NHRA tracks during 2011-2016, and I saw the grand stands empty out whenever TF cars were done.

EFI and flat hoods absolutely positively did not cause loss of interest in Pro Stock with casual fans. That interest was lost well before the changes.

PS - NHRA asked PS teams for their input on what to do with the class (based on lower car counts & lack of fan interest). No feedback was given.

[1972ho]

The feed back was (we are just a few rich guys that need a place to race).

[RW TECH]

The feed back was (we are just a few rich guys that need a place to race).

Surprisingly close....

[Warp Speed]

And that's just how Factory Stock will end up!