Pro Stock What If - Carb/EFI

[midnightbluS10]

They need to completely tear up Pro Stock and start over. Something similar to factory stock where they use stock bodies basically stock suspensions and Factory engines. Basically all of the pro classes suck ass right now but i would allmost rather watch the anti American soccer dykes than top fuel

I don't understand that sort of thinking. Personally, I love drag racing. All forms of drag racing. I don't just like pro stock. I don't just like *insert the class I participate in here* like a majority of people that participate. I love drag racing. Whether it's nitro, Pro stock, or freaking Jr dragsters. I dont care who's racing...because I love actual drag racing. ALL OF IT.


And I sure as h*ll wouldn't rather watch girls soccer over drag racing. Makes me question how much of an actual drag racing fan a person could be. Seems like you're in the group of "I like my certain classes and that's it" group. Fortunately for me, I'm not

How can a person like some forms and be so hateful of others, then claim they love drag racing?

They don't love drag racing. They love their specific class/type of drag racing. Quite a difference.

[FC-Pilot]

The casual fan wants to see explosions, crashes and the like. They want the excitement of a car all over the track. Much like the NASCAR fans that love to see the crashes.

I say let prostock keep their engine combos, but make them run mechanical injection with one main pill and one high speed and a contained mag and make them run on 10.5 tires. That is taking the engine tuning back 30 years and the limited tire will make the racing exciting. I personally liked the IHRA mountain motor stuff and the promod stuff from 15-20 years back as it was wild and you never knew what was going to happen. I also loved prostock of that era as well. I guess I am as much a part of the problem as anybody. Either way, there is no easy fix, that is for sure. As long as the casual fan can sit on their couch and watch "reality" fake racing why come to the real races. Then they can come to the track when the reality monkeys are putting on "their show" and bow to them just like we did to Grumpy, Sox & Martin, Sheppard, Glidden and Johnson and all the rest of those who used to build, tune and drive their own cars. Now only that, but they would speak their mind and have an argument from time to time and settle it on the track.

No easy answers to this spiders web of a question.

Paul

[ClassAct]

The casual fan wants to see explosions, crashes and the like. They want the excitement of a car all over the track. Much like the NASCAR fans that love to see the crashes.

I say let prostock keep their engine combos, but make them run mechanical injection with one main pill and one high speed and a contained mag and make them run on 10.5 tires. That is taking the engine tuning back 30 years and the limited tire will make the racing exciting. I personally liked the IHRA mountain motor stuff and the promod stuff from 15-20 years back as it was wild and you never knew what was going to happen. I also loved prostock of that era as well. I guess I am as much a part of the problem as anybody. Either way, there is no easy fix, that is for sure. As long as the casual fan can sit on their couch and watch "reality" fake racing why come to the real races. Then they can come to the track when the reality monkeys are putting on "their show" and bow to them just like we did to Grumpy, Sox & Martin, Sheppard, Glidden and Johnson and all the rest of those who used to build, tune and drive their own cars. Now only that, but they would speak their mind and have an argument from time to time and settle it on the track.

No easy answers to this spiders web of a question.

Paul

Oh hell...mechanical injection, one pill and 10,500 RPM???? There's no way. You need a main, a pump loop and a high speed minimum to get the fuel curve even close. And, you most likely would have to turn the pump way less that half of crank speed to get some low RPM fuel control.

I'm all for bringing back Modified Eliminator and letting stuff like that fly.

I think I'd make the Pro Stock drivers physically push the clutch pedal to shift the car. And take out the shift light. The problem with that is, more than half the drivers would be gone. They couldn't do it. I remember David Rampy trying PS. It just didn't click for him, and he is an uber talented driver.

They call PS a drivers class. Let's make it that. It would also bring in another level of clutch tuning.

[hoffman900]

There are classes that have everything you guys want, and no one watches those. Why would Pro Stock be any different?

[FC-Pilot]

There are classes that have everything you guys want, and no one watches those. Why would Pro Stock be any different?

That is part of the problem, even if it was “fixed” to be something that fans might be interested in, it would still be a time filler no matter what. That is why it can’t just be fixed. The only way it could be fixed for spectators to look forward to watching it is if it was a 200 mph demolition derby. Then fans would look forward to it.

Paul

[ClassAct]

There are classes that have everything you guys want, and no one watches those. Why would Pro Stock be any different?

What fuel injected true stick shift class is there? It damn sure ain't pro stock.

[gnicholson]

They need to completely tear up Pro Stock and start over. Something similar to factory stock where they use stock bodies basically stock suspensions and Factory engines. Basically all of the pro classes suck ass right now but i would allmost rather watch the anti American soccer dykes than top fuel

I don't understand that sort of thinking. Personally, I love drag racing. All forms of drag racing. I don't just like pro stock. I don't just like *insert the class I participate in here* like a majority of people that participate. I love drag racing. Whether it's nitro, Pro stock, or freaking Jr dragsters. I dont care who's racing...because I love actual drag racing. ALL OF IT.


And I sure as h*ll wouldn't rather watch girls soccer over drag racing. Makes me question how much of an actual drag racing fan a person could be. Seems like you're in the group of "I like my certain classes and that's it" group. Fortunately for me, I'm not

How can a person like some forms and be so hateful of others, then claim they love drag racing?

They don't love drag racing. They love their specific class/type of drag racing. Quite a difference.

its hard to be funny sometimes. the women's soccer comment was a bit of an exaggeration)

[GARY C]

There are classes that have everything you guys want, and no one watches those. Why would Pro Stock be any different?

What fuel injected true stick shift class is there? It damn sure ain't pro stock.

Not sure how many of these guys are running stick but it's a good class to follow.

There is also a good ongoing battle for the worlds fastest stick shift car.

[nitro2]

Nobody is ever out getting a hotdog when a nitro anything is on the track. Maybe a 400ish ci V8 engine based on something that real people could actually buy but then mod it further and run it on methanol but with a set limited nitro% to keep the HP down to somewhere in the same range as Pro Stock have now (or a bit more). The car ETS/MPH would be more variable and the engine builder's/tuners would not have things scienced out to the last HP like they do now.

Running nitro at lower percentages is not at all like running a Top Fuel engine, many things one normally associates with nitro cars (safety concerns, minimal engine life etc. etc.) do not apply. It's also not like running a straight methanol engine either. Definitely more aggressive than a race gas unobtainium Pro Stock engine though.

[gmrocket]

They need to completely tear up Pro Stock and start over. Something similar to factory stock where they use stock bodies basically stock suspensions and Factory engines. Basically all of the pro classes suck ass right now but i would allmost rather watch the anti American soccer dykes than top fuel

I don't understand that sort of thinking. Personally, I love drag racing. All forms of drag racing. I don't just like pro stock. I don't just like *insert the class I participate in here* like a majority of people that participate. I love drag racing. Whether it's nitro, Pro stock, or freaking Jr dragsters. I dont care who's racing...because I love actual drag racing. ALL OF IT.


And I sure as h*ll wouldn't rather watch girls soccer over drag racing. Makes me question how much of an actual drag racing fan a person could be. Seems like you're in the group of "I like my certain classes and that's it" group. Fortunately for me, I'm not

How can a person like some forms and be so hateful of others, then claim they love drag racing?

They don't love drag racing. They love their specific class/type of drag racing. Quite a difference.

Your probably to young to know what you missed..ya, that's it.

[midnightbluS10]

That depends on your definition of young. 20? Ha! I wish!

[Elroy]

Wow cool place. My first post. In my opinion the answer to prostock would have been to add some diversity to the class. Get some people rooting for different things. Small blocks with weight breaks would be an example.

Not to say that would be an absolute solution---its very possible nothing would have been the answer. That class while being many gearheads favorite just wasn't allowed to grow.

[jmarkaudio]

My opinion should be pretty clear by now, carb. And I'll give an example. A customer recently asked me to build a stretched carb for a high end build, the one that they had been running they were not happy with. This is a no expense spared BBF, 1500 HP range. They we unhappy enough with the original carb to put FI on it. It lost 50 HP.

An injection system is always metering the past, reading from sensors and then making changes.Even though it's slight it still makes a difference. It also delivers in pulses, so the air and fuel are not in an as homogenous mix. And last unless you are injecting above the butterflies you do not get the temperature drop from fuel vaporizing early in the intake tract.

Carburetors sense the airflow changes immediately. They meter fuel in a continuous stream to mix with incoming air. They atomize and vaporize fuel early in the intake to lower the charge temps. They are simple to work on, simple to fix and get parts for, and are cheaper.

Now if I thought that in any way there was an advantage to FI within a reasonable price range I would on it. I am an audio engineer for live TV sporting events, I have a background in basic electronics, I've done some 3D drawing for some of the carb components I use. I've built my own computer towers, install all my own software. I don't see an advantage for most N/A applications, and in some cases forced induction.

[digger]

My opinion should be pretty clear by now, carb. And I'll give an example. A customer recently asked me to build a stretched carb for a high end build, the one that they had been running they were not happy with. This is a no expense spared BBF, 1500 HP range. They we unhappy enough with the original carb to put FI on it. It lost 50 HP.

An injection system is always metering the past, reading from sensors and then making changes.Even though it's slight it still makes a difference. It also delivers in pulses, so the air and fuel are not in an as homogenous mix. And last unless you are injecting above the butterflies you do not get the temperature drop from fuel vaporizing early in the intake tract.

Carburetors sense the airflow changes immediately. They meter fuel in a continuous stream to mix with incoming air. They atomize and vaporize fuel early in the intake to lower the charge temps. They are simple to work on, simple to fix and get parts for, and are cheaper.

Now if I thought that in any way there was an advantage to FI within a reasonable price range I would on it. I am an audio engineer for live TV sporting events, I have a background in basic electronics, I've done some 3D drawing for some of the carb components I use. I've built my own computer towers, install all my own software. I don't see an advantage for most N/A applications, and in some cases forced induction.

the key point here is "reasonable price range" most of the EFI system people retrofit to engines that were running a carb is using tech from the 70's and 80's but charge prices from today. for the price the carb cools the inlet air more than an average EFI setup and hence makes more WOT power but other than that and the cost/simplicity that's the only advantage and its not a carb vs efi thing its the lack of proper application or they arent using the full capability of the system.

if you were actually trying to develop a EFI setup there is no reason you cant address the inlet charge cooling and be better than a carb in every single way and more, and that's just on the fuel delivery side and ignores the other benefits of the black box.

if you build a bespoke manifold without the compromises inherent within a carb, multiple injector per cylinder, high fuel pressure, proper fuel phasing, individual cylinder trims and more and still cant make more power WOT than a carb you probably need to find something else to do. Even for a relatively simple setup outline above The technology has been around for almost 20 years but from a cost point of view its much big investment compared to a carb.

if you throw a single injector per port or throttle body injector on carb manifold running at a few bar pressure that runs at high DC you aren't close to optimised its amazing they get within a few %

[andyf]

My opinion should be pretty clear by now, carb. And I'll give an example. A customer recently asked me to build a stretched carb for a high end build, the one that they had been running they were not happy with. This is a no expense spared BBF, 1500 HP range. They we unhappy enough with the original carb to put FI on it. It lost 50 HP.

An injection system is always metering the past, reading from sensors and then making changes.Even though it's slight it still makes a difference. It also delivers in pulses, so the air and fuel are not in an as homogenous mix. And last unless you are injecting above the butterflies you do not get the temperature drop from fuel vaporizing early in the intake tract.

Carburetors sense the airflow changes immediately. They meter fuel in a continuous stream to mix with incoming air. They atomize and vaporize fuel early in the intake to lower the charge temps. They are simple to work on, simple to fix and get parts for, and are cheaper.

Now if I thought that in any way there was an advantage to FI within a reasonable price range I would on it. I am an audio engineer for live TV sporting events, I have a background in basic electronics, I've done some 3D drawing for some of the carb components I use. I've built my own computer towers, install all my own software. I don't see an advantage for most N/A applications, and in some cases forced induction.

Carbs still work pretty well for some applications. So do horses for that matter and buggy whips and vacuum tubes. The problem with carbs is that the list of things they do well at is getting shorter and shorter. I doubt that you'll ever seen another production car with a carb on it unless Skynet takes over and shuts down all computers. Then the resistance will be driving around with carbs and point type distributors running moonshine trying to kill the robots. Barring that, the carb is heading towards being a vintage speed part like slingshot rails. Five years ago we never did EFI engines. Now about 50% of the engines going out the door have EFI on them. Street rodders, muscle car guys, bracket racers, etc. are switching to EFI pretty quickly. On some engines the power drops a bit with EFI but most people don't care. They are willing to trade a little power for all of the other features.